Why would online poker sites not rig their games?

[razarcrius]

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All I see in this thread is nonsensical bashing of the OP.

Seriously, how could the rigorous defenders of these sites not be shills? Why do you even care?

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Because new players could come to this site and read threads like this and take it for truth. It's not good for business

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Ya all the noobs come to 2+2... LOL idiot.

[Henry17]

Well 2+2 is indexed by google so yes the noobs might very well come here.

As for attacking the losing players who can't take responsibility for their lack of skill and blame the site for being rigged how should they be treated given they present no evidence and when drawn into a conversation about statistical analysis they show a complete lack of knowledge?

I'm still waiting for OnlinePro to explain how anyone with half a brain can fake the stats to make them look normal while still having a rigged site.

[MicroBob]

"I am tired of rush hour traffic.. Does that mean I am going to go to city hall every day and protest about the roads?"


This particular nonsensical argument has delighted me to no end.
It's so bizarrely and joyously irrelevant that I can't help but obsess about wtf he could possibly have been trying to say with this argument. I'm pretty sure I will never in my lifetime get to that level of thinking. But I'm enjoying the process all the same.
I think there are multiple layers and levels to this very simple yet baffling statement that are well beyond my grasp.

[NANONUTS]

I can't see why they wouldn't rig it tbh. If I was in charge I would personally make sure the worst hand improves more often than it should and keep the fish in the game longer.

The sheer amount of stats from loads of different players that would have to be compiled to prove conclusively that it is rigged means you wouldn't have to worry about getting caught. As for a programmer spilling the beans....simple stuff his pockets full of cash and company stock, problem solved. I'm sure most of these sites were started up by IT professionals though so the founding members/owners would have had the capabilites to program the relatively simple code needed to 'balance' the games themselves.
I can imagine Dikshit during the Party Poker development stage when they came to the card dealing code..."Hey my main man, u can take break now, I take it from here....what does that line of code mean u say?....NONE OF UR GODDAM [censored] BUSINESS NOW GTFO....than you please"

[Josem]

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I can't see why they wouldn't rig it tbh. If I was in charge I would personally make sure the worst hand improves more often than it should and keep the fish in the game longer.

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The fact that you admit you are willing to cheat, deceive and steal from people is a slur on yourself, not a slur on poker site operators.

I don't understand why you think it is acceptable to steal from people because they are on the other end of a computer network, rather than in front of you.

[MaverickUSC]

Impossible to rig w/o stats noticing, period. If favorites are losing 5% more than they should, that comes up in stats. It doesn't. If somebody were to rig stats and still make fish win more, then to counter balance those stats the favorite is going to have to also win 5% more in spots.

Etc, etc, etc. It's impossible to skew the stats to rigged and then de-rig those stats. Thats called normal variance. I know my favorites win 90% less than they should, but I also know that for three days sometime during the 08 WSOP they're going to win about 300% more than they should until I get heads up when they will not win at all.

If the numbers all balance in the long run it is impossible to be rigged.

Devo

[heater]

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and don't give me the [censored] answer that they make so much money on rake so why would they jepordize there company.

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Since when is l.ogical censored?

[NANONUTS]

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Impossible to rig w/o stats noticing, period. If favorites are losing 5% more than they should, that comes up in stats. It doesn't. If somebody were to rig stats and still make fish win more, then to counter balance those stats the favorite is going to have to also win 5% more in spots.


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Eh, the best hand isn't being rigged, I don't get what you mean about the favourite hand winning 5% more to counter balance the worse hand. It would be the worse hand that improves more than it should and this will automatically favour the worse player. You don't need to do anything with the best hand. How do you know it hasn't come up in the stats? Have you compiled lifetime databases from loads of winning players and ran an EV comparison on them?

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If the numbers all balance in the long run it is impossible to be rigged.


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Show me where the numbers have balanced in the long run? As I said, there has never been a study of the lifetime stats of many winning players taken together. If this was done and it shows it to be fair, then I would be the first to admit it. Until that happens, which it won't, I'm gonna presume unregulated offshore companies are utilizing a method that will increase revenue significantly for no extra risk. The chances of the analysis being done are so remote, and even it was they could just attribute it to variance, that they have nothing to worry. Just look at Absolute poker, where the current scandal has had no impact on their numbers. They also wouldn't have to be worried about going to jail, which would be the main deterent for most people, in the extremely like case that it was proven to be rigged, it would just mean they'd take a hit in traffic.

Why is it so hard to believe this could be happening for some people, there have been plenty of rogue poker sites and casinos in the past.

[Josem]

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It would be the worse hand that improves more than it should and this will automatically favour the worse player. You don't need to do anything with the best hand.

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presumably, if the worse hand wins x% more often than it should, then the best hand should win x% less often than it should.

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Show me where the numbers have balanced in the long run? As I said, there has never been a study of the lifetime stats of many winning players taken together.

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I don't know whether you are genuinely trying to be trolling this, but the concept of coming along, concocting an absurd international conspiracy, labelling hundreds of people thieves, accusing others of fraud, and throwing a massive and unsubstantiated slur against hard working people, and then having the temerity to ask for evidence to disprove your unsubstantiated and offensive allegations is [censored] crazy.

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If this was done and it shows it to be fair, then I would be the first to admit it. Until that happens, which it won't, I'm gonna presume unregulated offshore companies are utilizing a method that will increase revenue significantly for no extra risk.

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WTF? Are you seriously claiming that as long as there is no evidence, you will believe that there is a massive international conspiracy? This is self-evidently stupid.

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They also wouldn't have to be worried about going to jail, which would be the main deterent for most people, in the extremely like case that it was proven to be rigged, it would just mean they'd take a hit in traffic.

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Why would they not be worried about going to gaol? You do realise that places like England, Costa Rica, Gibraltar, and other places outside the US do have court systems?

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Why is it so hard to believe this could be happening for some people,

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Because there is no evidence that it is happening.

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there have been plenty of rogue poker sites and casinos in the past.

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...which have been caught by providing evidence to support an allegation.

[MyTurn2Raise]

here is the methodology I used:

-I gathered huge amounts of allin confrontations from extensive datamining

-I would use the allin-ev calculator that was floating around the software forum a few months back. It was the thread that led to the creation of pokerev. I ran it on players that had huge numbers of hands.

-I exported the text outputs to openoffice.

-I manipulated the text string to make it fit the spreadsheet.

-I couldn't think of the proper distribution to put things in, so I ran montecarlos.

-the allin ev program spits out the ev of hands when the money gets allin (this is key)

-I create a column of RNDM numbers (0 to 1)

-compare random number to ev of 'leading' hand
---if lower, give pot to 'leading' hand
---if higher, give pot to 'trailing' hand

-rinse and repeat

-I did thousands of columns of random numbers for every allin hand

--I compared the actual results with the monte carlo distribution of results


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the 'leading' hands in reality where faring very, VERY poorly to the montecarlo distribution and to a straight ev avg

they were only raking in about 95% of what they should in my sample
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others, with huge datamines, can do the exercise and look at both
-how the 'leading' hand fares
-how the regular who is a consistent winner fares on both his 'leading' and 'trailing' hands


It's lots of fun
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note: my own info is not available as I don't share my HHs






EDIT: to clarify, each hand gets a row with the 'leading' hands % to win, trailing hands % to win (1-leading), and pot size

columns added with RND number for each hand...compare to leading hand win %....hand out pot......repeat for however many trials you want in the monte carlo