Are we bluffing pf?

[roy_miami]

So we 3bet 22-77 to hit a set or give up? The major problem with this plan is the hands we want to see a set against the most are the same hands that will 4bet preflop forcing us to fold.

Speed, what are your $$ won numbers like with 77 as opposed to 88?

[Jay Riall]

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carrotsnake is shaking the aquarium

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Yah, shhhhh

[Speedlimits]

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So we 3bet 22-77 to hit a set or give up? The major problem with this plan is the hands we want to see a set against the most are the same hands that will 4bet preflop forcing us to fold.

Speed, what are your $$ won numbers like with 77 as opposed to 88?

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The 3betting small pckt pairs/suited connectors was strictly for OOP. I should have made that clear in my initial post.

[Xanta]

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So we 3bet 22-77 to hit a set or give up? The major problem with this plan is the hands we want to see a set against the most are the same hands that will 4bet preflop forcing us to fold.

Speed, what are your $$ won numbers like with 77 as opposed to 88?

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When we 3bet 22-77, we get a fold a lot which is nice, but I'm planning on cbetting the majority of flops, and cbetting in 3bet pots = $$$. We're not getting a stack in unless we hit a set or very rarely on a bluff.

Edit: I'm taking the carrotsnake challenge at 50NL. Weak, yes, but I'm really pretty weak postflop and my roll can't handle the losses I expect. Should be fun.

[carrotsnake]

jay <3 I never ever actually give non-troll advice anyway [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Jay Riall]

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jay <3 I never ever actually give non-troll advice anyway [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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heh your troll advice is probably better than most of the posts here anyway

[whangarei]

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Great thread. A lot of really good concepts in here that are *luckily* disguised by some equally bad advice.

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Posts like these are really very irritating to someone trying to learn the game. Why post at all?

[Andykay]

My thoughts on 3 betting are that it throws an extra decision into the mix. The basics of profitable poker is making better decisions and less mistakes than your opponent. Obviously I don't want to make this sound like BBV, but poker rewards aggressive moves.

If I feel like I have an edge on my opponents, I want to put them in as many positions to make mistakes as I can to allow me to capitolise on that.

The amount you 3bet really should depend on the flow of the game. I've noticed a lot of mediocre TAGs have started habitually 3betting with suited connectors and such even against opponents they've never played before. That's a mistake.

If people are predictable and will constantly fold to 3bets, you should be doing it with a wide range as it's basically free money. If you're playing against standard TAGfish, you need to work out when they adjust their calling range and then play appropriately. It's all about adapting. A lot of people simply can't stand to get 3bet all the time, particularly when they're OOP, and you can force some very obvious mistakes from otherwise quite solid players this way.

The merits and negatives of 3betting different hands in different situations is completely variable. Small pairs tend to have the best implied odds of any hand, and for that reason I tend to feel like their value is wasted by 3betting, but conversely if your opponent will call your 3bet with QJo or T9s, then you're doing it for value and it's fine.

Basically what i'm getting at is, it is kind of a moot point to outline what is or isn't the proper 3betting strategy. Like anything else in poker if you're not reacting to the dynamics of the game you're not playing optimally.

-Andy

[tufat23]

someone ban carrotsnake.

my next CR on wednesday, i cold call a UTG raise with JJ but squeeze a button raise + sb call from bb with 33.


beat: i keep talking about my cr vids

[Shes92]

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also, against a 20/17, with hands like JJ, you are ahead of his opening range UTG and therefore its not a bluff at all, its a value raise

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I agree that we are usually ahead, but my point is that a solid TAG is almost never going to just call our 3-bet out of position with a weaker hand. If a TAG opens UTG, we three bet in position, most good TAG's are never going to flat call our 3-bet with a worse hand (assuming 100 BB stacks and little history).

When we do get called it's almost always by a better hand that is trapping us. So my question still stands, if our opponent isn't going to call us with worse, aren't we bluffing?

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Sorry havent read most of posts ... but..... I think it is important to remember that its not a bad thing to win just the preflop $$$$ with either JJ or AQ. There can be a lot of ugly flops for those hands so taking it down preflop by defining our hand as strong is not bluffing. Also I think a lot of players will call reraises depending on size with PP hoping to stack a bigger pair and they may also call with AJs etc. I think this is a value raise where taking the pot down preflop is a good result.