Harrah's Makes Good Floor Decision?

[TMTTR]

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Protecting your hand is not a "pre-emptive strike" -- it is appropriate procedure when playing live poker.

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Why bother protecting my hand if it isn't for the fact that it is widely accepted that dealers will erroneously kill hands that shouldn't be killed?

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Because it happens -- whether it is 1 in 10, 1 in 1000 or 1 in a million hands. It happens. You know it happens with some frequency in the 1 and 10 seats (usually not at showdown, but at earlier points when the cards are mistaken for mucked cards). The dealer has responsibilities but so do the players. If you want to be devoid of these player responsibilities (and all human contact while playing poker), stick to playing online.

[amead]

RR - Please don't interpret my posts as being critical of dealers. They generally do a good job, and I'm sure you are pretty fantastic. I also don't have a problem with mistakes being made. If I were to deal, I'd make a ton of mistakes, both small and large. It's not easy, and I'm sure it can get monotonous.

That's not the point at all. The point is that it looks very bad for a dealer to belittle, berate, and harangue a player for not knowing and being 100% comfortable with the "fact" that they were going to have a dealer make a huge mistake and award a pot to an undeserving player.

[psandman]

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Well, it seems that the vote from the Dealer Party is that if there is a problem, it is always the player's fault, never the dealer's.

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I certainly never said and you can't find anywhere I said that. The reality of the situation is that most mistakes are caused by a player and dealer error.

I have a question, If a player whose turn it is says something and the dealer thinks he said "I'm out" and mucks the players cards and the player then objects and says "I said Timeout" who was at fault? The Dealer for not hearing it correctly or the player for not speaking clearly enough? (this scenario recently occurred in the room I work)

The bottom line is that mistakes are made by dealers and players (I'm not the best dealer in the world and I can assure you see players make far more mistakes than I make)

As to the reason i don't like the floor's giving the money to player here is that it creates an incentive for a player to not speak up when an error is being made. When I make an error I don't mind when a player points it out. i want them to point it out as soon as possible so that it can be stopped and fixed. I don't want them waiting until its too late befor ethey point out the error. So I can live with giving him the money if it comes with a warning about protecting ones hand and that this is a one time thing.

[RR]

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The point is that it looks very bad for a dealer to belittle, berate, and harangue a player for not knowing and being 100% comfortable with the "fact" that they were going to have a dealer make a huge mistake and award a pot to an undeserving player.

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I would take any dealer off the floor that did anything other than apologizing for making a mistake.

[psandman]

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That's not a lot of mistakes, and certainly some are more aggregious than others. I'd be surprised though if the average dealer only makes one error a year, from my experience.

But whatever, that's not the point. The question I'm posing is that because these errors are rare, and because repetitive jobs have an acceptable error rate, is the answer that IF you are the victim of an error by the dealer, you should be blamed for not taking a pre-emptive strike to reduce your exposure to them.

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Now I understand your misconception. He wasn't "blamed" for the error. The fact is the compound dealer errors here led to a situation where he could not know with 100% certainty that he lost. From what OP has written, he was pretty sure he had lost. Because of the screw ups by the dealer, the house refunded the money he invested in the hand. Some people do not agree that the house should have done that, but it was done.

Protecting your hand is not a "pre-emptive strike" -- it is appropriate procedure when playing live poker. A "pre-emptive strike" would be calling the floor over before each pot is awarded so he could confirm that it was being awarded to the proper player.

At showdown, expose your hand while protecting it until you are certain that you have lost or the dealer confirms that you have won (by pushing the pot towards you, by mucking all other remaining hands or otherwise). Why are you making such a big deal? What is your infallible solution?

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And Add to that the following: one does not necessarily have to hold on to ones cards to protect them (though that is ceratinly safest) he could have protected his hand by immediately objecting when the dealer grabbed them

[govman6767]

Sheesh if I make a mistake on my job ppl could die.

And I still think a dealers job is more stressful.

Putting up with nittism

[amead]

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And Add to that the following: one does not necessarily have to hold on to ones cards to protect them (though that is ceratinly safest) he could have protected his hand by immediately objecting when the dealer grabbed them

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Yeah, the player can do a bunch of things to keep from getting hosed. He could also not come to your casino, but those are not the type of solutions that IMHO we need.

I mean, sandman, you seem like a pretty smart guy, but you definitely implied the the OP was a cheater when he shared a story about a dealer making a mistake. I guess RR would have to pull you out of the box for that one.

[RR]

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I mean, sandman, you seem like a pretty smart guy, but you definitely implied the the OP was a cheater when he shared a story about a dealer making a mistake. I guess RR would have to pull you out of the box for that one.


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Taking the cards when he shouldn't have is a dealer error. Allowing the dealer to muck a probable losing hand to ask for some money after it is gone is a cheating move. It has been long enough ago that I don't remember the OP, but if this is what happened he is right. I can remember a number of cases where a player tried to capitalize on an irregularity, I consider these guys cheats. I remember a case where a player turned up his pocket 4s in a stud game because he thought it was a misdeal. I was called over to the table he complained about showing his hand and I advised him that it was up to him whether or not he wanted to play the hand, but I wasn't going to make it a misdeal because he thought it should be. After the hand I get back to the table and he is throwing a fit wanting his money back that he put in the pot. he got upset and left when I was unwilling to give him anything for the "mistake." Normally this would just be a guy that doesn't understand how the casino works and thought he should be compensated. After he left a number of people approached me and told me he said he was going to play the hand and get his money back form the casino if he lost. The dealer in this hand made a mistake (I don't remember what it was that made the player think it was a misdeal, this hand took place in either 99 2k) everything that happened after that is pure angling/cheating on the part of the pocket 4s player.

[VORP]

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"Protect Your Hand" = Hold on to your cards until the dealer has shoved you the pot.

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Yes, it seriously is that easy. I hear players at the card room complain about how their hand got killed unfairly. 100% of these complaints are from inexperienced live players. There's a reason we never get posts saying, "So I was playing 40/80 and had my cards laying unprotected in front of me and the stupid dealer killed them! What an idiot!" People who have been playing poker for a while understand what RR has been trying to explain in this thread.

[psandman]

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Sheesh if I make a mistake on my job ppl could die.

And I still think a dealers job is more stressful.

Putting up with nittism

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I don't know what your job is but I don't think dealing is stressful at all.