WSOP $1500 NLHE Hand – ‘Experts’ Disagree, JJ with 21BBs

[sheetsworld]

I flat call and call the squeeze shove from the bb.

sheets


edit: Not kidding....I think that, if the sb or bb is the type of player and has the stack size to squeeze there without all that much, then the added ev gained from this more than makes up for the loss of ev which giving up the shove produces.

(or maybe not who knows, but its defintiely an option)


sheets

[BarryLyndon]

Taking position and making difficult flop decisions against the right kind of opponent gets you more chips, allows you to advance far into a tournament, etc. etc. I think that's what OP was doing here and I can't see anything wrong with that. In terms of cEV, both moves are good, but what really leans us in favor of calling and playing poker is $EV. You're just not chipping up enough with a push here in this spot.

Barry

Barry

[Shocker101]

Sorry this is a very interesting hand at the end of the hand if the king doesn't come but say another blank comes are we still calling off all our chips hoping the aggressive player is still bluffing the hand?

What about if a queen comes and AQ is one of the hands that we put the Villian on?

How do some of the better players make these decisions or do you just try to go with reads?

Thanks in advance

[BarryLyndon]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry this is a very interesting hand at the end of the hand if the king doesn't come but say another blank comes are we still calling off all our chips hoping the aggressive player is still bluffing the hand?

What about if a queen comes and AQ is one of the hands that we put the Villian on?

How do some of the better players make these decisions or do you just try to go with reads?

Thanks in advance

[/ QUOTE ]

That condition happens 12% of the time and when he has put 1K in the pot. That sounds good, right? IF the 2nd K doesn't come up, plan is to probably call. If a Q comes up, plan is still probably to call. We lose, but IMO, we still played the hand pretty well. There are less combinations of hands with a Q that raise than there are an A. If an A comes up, we just have to fold.

Barry

[namespace]

I've been told that I was wrong doing this before, but let's try again: Re-raise PF and if scary cards hit represent them or an over-pair... a go&go. (Someone well respected here once told me that representing a hand bigger than what you have is normally bad in NLHE.)

I think it's bad to call PF with JJ because so many scary flops will happen and what do we do if an A or K hits? Even worse what happens if we get a couple callers behind. Jacks play very bad multi-way so we definitely want to isolate the PF raiser.

If the PF raiser re-raises then I fold. Given our tight image I only see AA-QQ coming over the top and we still have enough chips to play after folding.

If we jack it up to 1500 villain will probably call giving us extra value to our hand. We take control and shove any flop. Depending on the texture of the flop we can still get TT- to call thinking that we have a broken ace.


More on maximizing our value:
If we re-raise PF to 1500 and get a call then we have like 3300 in the pot.

If we call then we might have 1500 in the pot + his c-bet gives us around 2300.

I typed this up real fast at work and based on instinct but later I'd like to run some numbers. This hand is super interesting to me.


As played: <edit>(to be clear after the PF call)</edit>
I would have had to bet JJ a real small amount and if he came over the top surely fold. A small value type bet here could easily be a tight player trying to extract max value from AK. If I get flat called I'm probably jamming 4th street.

[curtains]

calling PF should be fine, pushing PF should be fine. Pushing PF just isnt +EV enough to make it the only reasonable choice with so many chips in play. Probably depends on a million things as to what the best play is. I'd usually move allin though, but really seems like it's okay to put this one down as a question of style. With 3100-3500 chips allin would be mandatory IMO.

[namespace]

Hey curtains, I live near philly-we should go out for beers sometime :-)

Anyways, isn't encouraging a multi-way pot with JJ like super bad here? I think flat calling PF is way bad.

You said calling or pushing should be fine. Why are you against raising here?

[DonT77]

I agree Sheets, that flat calling in the hope of inducing a squeeze (when the table conditions are right) can work really well - especially when your hand is in the upper end of what your opponents perceive your range to be.

In this particular case, I'm calling off 1/7th of my stack PF, so combined with my table image - I think that my perceived range is pretty narrow - so while I'd probably call a squeeze here, I don't think I'd be too happy about it since my actual hand is nearer to the bottom of my perceived range than the top of my P-Range.