poker coaching

[DWarrior]

I had 2 coaches over the past 2 months, because I am a student and I thought I was ready to make poker my primary source of income. Both sessions were 2 hours, both $50/hr. I play 50nl, and can now confidently beat the game for 4.5bb/100 on FTP before rb. I'm fairly confident now that I can be a 3bb/100 or above winner at 100nl, but I need to get my br higher to not be affected by the swings.

The biggest benefit of these sessions was getting 2 solid winners at higher stakes telling me that I was good enough to beat the game. The confidence boost really helps create the motivation to play (however, I should note that so far I've only put 25-30k hands per month because of school and poor time management).

Another beneficial aspect was realizing I could play more tables. Before I would restrict myself to 4 tables, but now I can play 6-8 just as well.

They also help fix a lot of smaller leaks that are rampant on 2+2. A lot of SSNL players have tons of leaks, and those who are good gloss over the small stuff. The coaches spotted those immediately and helped me fix them.

I've also been a member of CR, and the coaches helped me pull all the info I learned together into a coherent strategy. (BTW, both of the coaches were guest low limit pros on CR.)

I think this was all worth the $200. I don't know how good of a decision it is long-term, but I'm pretty sure if online poker gets banned, I can go play 2/5NL live now.

Also, I don't know how much value there is in getting high-stakes coaches for low stakes, to me it seems like a waste of money. I think it's better to get coaches a couple of levels above you, so you get people who have already beaten your stakes (and know the concepts it takes), and you learn it at the appropriate price. Why pay a high-stakes coach to teach you low-stakes concepts? I'm going to try getting coaches whenever I move up in levels, just for an hour or two at a time (until I get to a high enough level where more hours are necessary). That seems more time-effective than going trial and error.

PS, unfortunately I had to get into poker alone, as all my friends suck at it. I'm sure I'd have been at a much higher level if I had a friend to learn with. Now I have a net-friend who's also going a similar CR+coaching route, and we've done a few sweat sessions and regularly discuss hand histories. I think that also helps tremendously. Only time will tell though.

[Dazarath]

This isn't quite the answer to your questions, but I'll discuss why I (personally) decided to get a coach. I was originally a limit player, and I worked my way up to the 30/60 full ring on Party. I was making (what I consider) a decent amount, nothing spectacular or anything though. I used to read almost every hand post in the mid and high stakes forums, and I'd join in a lot of the discussions in the mid-stakes forum.

At some point, I felt like I wasn't learning much new, and my game was not improving. Note, this is not to say that the forums sucked (though they were going downhill), but I felt that I might have fallen into a groove where I wasn't looking for new ways to change my game. I would take occasional shots at the 50/100, 100/200 games, but I'd only feel semi-comfortable there if it was some ridiculously juicy game. For the most part, though, I was just stuck multitabling the 30/60.

I figured getting a coach could help me get the extra boost. There was obviously something separating me from the really good players beating the 50 and 100 games.

At some point in my poker career, I decided to jump on the NL bandwagon. Again, I decided to get a coach, but for different reasons this time. Unlike some of the other posters on these forums, I'm not the fastest learner when it comes to poker.

If I were to just hope into NL myself, I would've started out at the 1/2 games and moved up as my skill level dictated, even though I was rolled for high stakes. I figured paying $150/hour (which was the going price at the time) to help me speed up the learning process was a great option. Why start out at small stakes when I could exchange a portion of my winnings to help me generate more winnings?

I later had to stop because of school, but that's irrelevant. If I ever feel that I've fallen into another rut where I'm not improving, I will probably go looking for another coach again. And I know that will probably come, as I've never been one who speeds through the limits on their own that well.

[king_of_drafts]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been on both ends of a coaching arrangement a few times.

I've felt that the student got the better end of the deal in each case, whether I was it or not.

I think that most coaching arrangements are worthwhile as long as the one getting coached is serious about getting better at poker, and will be playing, and therefore reaping the benefits of coaching, for a long time.

One of the main things I learned as a student was confidence in my own ability to make decisions. I'm not sure how to explain it really, but learning that I knew how to think about hands, and realizing that there isn't a 'standard' way to play everything got rid of that feeling of being lost or confused. I almost never feel lost during a hand anymore. I think it came from seeing great players/coaches work through their reasoning for plays, and noticing that the answers usually weren't clear cut.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT...I had exactly the same experience.

If you are someone seeking coaching, be sure to get a good coach. Seriously, there are some really bad ones out there. REALLY bad.

[Bond18]

I have a coach i do a small amount of time with in MTT's, and i also learn a ton talking with guys with way less experience than me.

We all have a good grasp on a different set of concepts, sometimes you missed something they didn't or vice versa, so you can learn a lot from each other while being on roughly equal terms.

[Isura]

I've had 2 coaches in the past. Now I coach a few people. I agree with jman that the student gets the better deal. I charge less than 1/2 my hourly rate, but still find it rewarding to just be helping people.

[JackAll]

Great thread.


orange says:
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I now have a coach, BobboFitos who helps alot too. He isn't like most coaches these days (who sweat or whatever).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I would be looking for if/when I made the jump to get a coach (and laziness/lack of motivation is what is holding me back - which is stupid of me).


El Diablo says:
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All,

Here's one thing I don't get about coaching in the context of these forums: Why someone who is really into poker and is part of this community wouldn't make at least one good poker friend that they could talk poker with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people that post here are retarded poker players.
Read the theory threads and u see 15 moronic replies to every useful one (who often doesn't even bother explaining their thoughts on why that line is superior).

[+EV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's one thing I don't get about coaching in the context of these forums: Why someone who is really into poker and is part of this community wouldn't make at least one good poker friend that they could talk poker with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know but I have not. Call me antisocial or too busy with other stuff but I don't have any poker friends. I do however have a poker coach, a full time job, a real estate investing business, a wife, and an exercise schedule.

I have a coach because it is helping me to get to my goal in a more efficient way. I am not an intuitive learner. I have accepted this. Coaching gives me week to week feedback, direct goals, and has kept me motivated over the last month. It has been quite a huge benefit to me.

So to answer a couple of points from the origional post.
1) I use 3-bet
2) I paid for 10 lessons up front after agreeing to one and being very happy with it.
3) I have had 4 lessons over 4 weeks so far. In every lesson I have picked up at least one key concept that I feel like has significantly impacted the way I play.
4) I have put in more hands in the last month than in the 6 months prior.
5) I am more confidant about my game and excited rather than scared to move to the next level. I currently play NL25 6max. I believe that I am definately beating it. (~8-10BB/100 over 20K hands)
6) Coaching at my level vs what I pay is almost a break even proposition. Although I don't expect it to happen every week, it seems like my lesson day is almost always one of my best for the week. I have made roughly the cost of the lesson on every session that I have been coached. It honestly feels like it is free to me right now. I don't think this will translate to higher levels though as the cost of coaching increases and variance becomes higher.
7) I "used" card runners for over 6 months but probably only really for the first two that I had it. It helped me get to winning 25NL but not keep me motivated.
8) I think that results will be highly subjective based on persons ability, willingness to learn etc. Even if 10 people use the same coach results will vary.

Those are my thoughts for now. Hope it helped someone
Greg

BTW I highly recommend people look into 3bet.net. They are well run and have a lot of different coaches available. They will find you the right one and have been pretty outstanding in every respect. You will also have a level of comfort that you will be taken care of professionally which you might not get with just some random guy (cough cough snowbank cough cough)

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I would post an update since this thread reappeared.

I have now taken about 10 hours of coaching from 3-bet. I have moved up recently to NL50 6max. I hit a tremendous downswing at NL25 that stunted my move up for a while but having a coach through it was really great. It helped me to stay focused on the long run.

While I was on my downswing I realized that I was really thinking more about my game and gaining experience. Although my win-rate has dropped to something more reasonable now over like 40-50K hands, I still feel confidant that I am beating the game. However, recently something just clicked and now I don't worry about beats and $$$ as much. I play as good as possible. My mood is better on days I lose because I feel like it is a matter of time before I win it back. When I first started coaching, I was spurred on by a thread that basically said "why arn't you playing higher and winning more" and then went into some reasons. I realized I was really risk adverse because I was more interested in winning at low levels than possibly losing at higher levels. I wanted badly to start moving up, and my "paradigm shift" has been substantial since I started getting coached and putting in massive hands. It was really just a lack of confidence in my ability.

I am motivated to put in more time than ever on hands. I have played a bunch of 1OK hands months and am targeting a 20K hands month this month.

My coaching is coming to an end here soon. I am not sure whether I will purchase more lessons at this point. Nation has agreed to scale back our lessons to 30min once a week because it will keep me on the right track. I am sure that this is a waste of his time when we could probably just bang the lessons out in a week and he could be off to do other things. However, most nights now we just shoot the [censored] for 30 min and talk about a hand or two. The confirmation that I am a winning player at least at the level that I am at and on a weekly basis is priceless. I think that until I am beating NL50 over 30-50K hands I will not want to deplete my BR by purchasing more lessons.

I have also come to realize that a not very imaginative ABC type style is all that is necessary to beat NL50 6max and I am not sure how much I will benefit from further coaching until I start taking a shot at NL100. Having a coach during the move up has been great though. It seems like there are three really good times to have a coach.

1) During a downswing
2) During a move up (or while contemplating a move to gain confidence)
3) During a plateau where you want to improve but can't figure out how to.

Otherwise having a coach is really just nice to keep motivated from week to week, and to have someone there as a sanity check.

+EV

[pig4bill]

I looked for a poker coach for the better part of a year. Most of the ones I contacted said something like "send me your hand histories and we'll chat over AIM as you play". Uh, well, 98% of my play is in a casino. I did find a couple people that were willing to coach in person, but the logistics never worked out to where I could count on getting consistent instruction over a number of weeks. At this point I'm too broke to pay for a good coach.

As for finding a "poker buddy", I've found that good players were reluctant to help someone become their competition.

[TheWorstPlayer]

Why dont you just start chatting with someone else who plays in your casino and who you think is good? That's what I would do.

[jackflashdrive]

[ QUOTE ]
I have also come to realize that a not very imaginative ABC type style is all that is necessary to beat anything lower than 400 NL with halfway decent table selection