Jman's River c/r Hand of the Week (300/600nl)

[HSNUMarketing]

River VB was good/great only in the case you knew he would C/R a weak bet with a hand like that.

On the other case, I think check would have been good.

Btw, what you think of a pot sized bet on the turn? Just curious.

[ggbman]

J,

A few quick thoughts... If you think your hand is worth a value bet on the river, then you would need to call a shove because PA will be able to recognize from your line that your hand is almost never one that you want to felt. Additionally, the chance that you could be bluffing here (this seems like a reasonable enough spot without any info to the contrary) could create a thought process here for him like "Well he could be bluffing here often and obviously he would have to fold all those hands, and additionally there is a decent chance he is making a thinnish value bet and will fold to my AI.

With all that said, i strongly disagree with your river bet in general. When you say that he has been c/r many flops and is probably doing so that he can fastplay hands in the future and get paid off, i imagine that to be completley true, it's pretty standard operating procedure in any mid-high limit NL game. However PA is one of the most sucessful NL players out there, and he is going to very his play a lot and do many counter-intuitive things in all likelyhood. I would imagine that there are many situations where he would take a line to [censored] with you, like here you discount the possibility of trips right away because he doesn't c/r the flop. Now I am honestly not good enough to discern if this is a spot where he would very rarely make that kind of variation in his play, but he's gotta do it somewhere right?

Furthermore, by your logic that he should never be very strong on the flop, if you had held A-T in this hand, you would basically have to felt the turn 100% of the time right? I mean he would re-raise better aces Pre-flop and can't have trips or a better two pair so your hand would be the nuts! My point is that with good high limit players who mix up their play, and will do weird counter-intuitive [censored], i mean it's only like 3rd level thinking. I would expect that your line of thinking there is pretty dangerous. And of course lastly, the board has gotten pretty bad for a lot of his hands. You could have Ax of course, the 7 fills gutterballs, your turn/river combo looks like pot control with perhaps a middle to large PP, and unless he has a huge leak to C/R bluff the river i just don't imagine that he pays off enough to make the bet worth it, especially considering that pure floats with be fairly common here by him (Unless like i said he c/r bluffs the river WAAAY to much) So overally, i think the river bet is pretty bad with the knowledge you had, and the call of the c/r is fine, not obviously correct, but fine.

[SA125]

Good post strassa. Good post by OP. Good stuff in HSNL for us wannabe's.

[Bill King]

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I usually don't post high level thinking stuff here. This is the most interesting hand I've ever posted on 2p2 and no one seems to want to talk about it.

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I don't know if you should call or not but value betting this thinly against good players isn't a very good idea.

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[pocketjesuits]

What ggbman said.

It is very dangerous to assume that he will always play certain hands certain ways and immediately discount them.

[curtains]

I dunno maybe this has already been discussed, but does anyone else think its completely unethical for multiple people to be using this account? Perhaps this is some common practice I don't know about, but in my brief glance at this thread no one seems to have even made a peep about it. It's not as if knowing your opponent is a minor point of headsup play, and here we are playing 300-600.

Not only that but the player is a paid representative of the site. In all honesty I think that if there was any proof of someone else using this account, the player who played against them should be entitled to a 100% refund should they have lost any money.

Anyway I think its disgusting. First its disgusting of the players involved to take advantage of their opponent lkie this. I find this as bad if not worse than what ZJ did, yet in that case we get a 200 page thread about how he's a giant cheater, whereas here it's like no big deal.

Secondly it's disgusting of FTP to turn a blind eye to this. Based on the comments I've seen in this thread this is clearly happening and most people know about it.

I mean really wtf? How do you guys who lambasted ZJ over and over just sit back and ignore this and instead just casually analyze the hand in question. It's unbelievably hypocritical that no one is making a big stink out of this.

[SlowHabit]

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I dunno maybe this has already been discussed, but does anyone else think its completely unethical for multiple people to be using this account? Perhaps this is some common practice I don't know about, but in my brief glance at this thread no one seems to have even made a peep about it. It's not as if knowing your opponent is a minor point of headsup play, and here we are playing 300-600.

Not only that but the player is a paid representative of the site. In all honesty I think that if there was any proof of someone else using this account, the player who played against them should be entitled to a 100% refund should they have lost any money.

Anyway I think its disgusting. First its disgusting of the players involved to take advantage of their opponent lkie this. I find this as bad if not worse than what ZJ did, yet in that case we get a 200 page thread about how he's a giant cheater, whereas here it's like no big deal.

Secondly it's disgusting of FTP to turn a blind eye to this. Based on the comments I've seen in this thread this is clearly happening and most people know about it.

I mean really wtf? How do you guys who lambasted ZJ over and over just sit back and ignore this and instead just casually analyze the hand in question. It's unbelievably hypocritical that no one is making a big stink out of this.

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Because he's PA?

And/Or maybe some of our users have done the same thing on our friends' accounts?

And/Or it's easier to target one person and follow the crowd than to target a group of "online celebrities?"

[pocketjesuits]

I don't think the anything can be done about multiple people using the same account, nor is there anything really wrong with it - insofar as everyone should accept it as a possibility and just deal with it.

The problem is that he is a representative of the site, supposedly using his real name. That's the bigger issue in my mind, and FTP shouldn't stand for that.

[curtains]

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I don't think the anything can be done about multiple people using the same account, nor is there anything really wrong with it - insofar as everyone should accept it as a possibility and just deal with it.

The problem is that he is a representative of the site, supposedly using his real name. That's the bigger issue in my mind, and FTP shouldn't stand for that.

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Well obviously it's much more egregious of an offense due to the second part of your post. Nonetheless I believe that most sites would call it illegal. I recall Pokerstars making a public claim as such when Exclusive took over for a friend at the end of a big MTT, but I could be mistaken.

Whether or not it's illegal, I do think it's extremely unethical. Of course it's all relative. If I am hanging out with my dad and casually helping him with some $5 MTT, is it the same as someone playing at a $300-$600 headsup table under another handle? It's tough to draw the line as to when it's okay and when it isn't. But okay I think in this case it's a clear and drastic moral violation, not only by the players who are being paid to represent the site, but for the site for not cracking down on it.

[Cardsofwood]

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I don't think the anything can be done about multiple people using the same account, nor is there anything really wrong with it - insofar as everyone should accept it as a possibility and just deal with it.

The problem is that he is a representative of the site, supposedly using his real name. That's the bigger issue in my mind, and FTP shouldn't stand for that.

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Well obviously it's much more egregious of an offense due to the second part of your post. Nonetheless I believe that most sites would call it illegal. I recall Pokerstars making a public claim as such when Exclusive took over for a friend at the end of a big MTT, but I could be mistaken.

Whether or not it's illegal, I do think it's extremely unethical. Of course it's all relative. If I am hanging out with my dad and casually helping him with some $5 MTT, is it the same as someone playing at a $300-$600 headsup table under another handle? It's tough to draw the line as to when it's okay and when it isn't. But okay I think in this case it's a clear and drastic moral violation, not only by the players who are being paid to represent the site, but for the site for not cracking down on it.

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I remember exclusive took over for Marcel Luske under el capitan and stars said that was a unique situation and is against terms and services but I know David Benyamine is known to have 5+ handles on FTP and if you are a high stakes player that generates a lot of action, they just dont seem to have any problem with it.