Caesar's Palace- Player went all in and ran away with $ after I called

[bav]

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Nevada Revised Statutes Section 205.275

Offense involving stolen property: Definition; penalty; restitution; prima facie evidence; determination of value of property.

1. A person commits an offense involving stolen property if the person, for his own gain or to prevent the owner from again possessing his property, buys, receives, possesses or withholds property

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I was figuring they'd just pull one of the gaming statutes out and use it. Maybe this one: [ QUOTE ]

NRS 465.070 Fraudulent acts. It is unlawful for any person:

1. To alter or misrepresent the outcome of a game or other event on which wagers have been made after the outcome is made sure but before it is revealed to the players.

2. To place, increase or decrease a bet or to determine the course of play after acquiring knowledge, not available to all players, of the outcome of the game or any event that affects the outcome of the game or which is the subject of the bet or to aid anyone in acquiring such knowledge for the purpose of placing, increasing or decreasing a bet or determining the course of play contingent upon that event or outcome.

3. To claim, collect or take, or attempt to claim, collect or take, money or anything of value in or from a gambling game, with intent to defraud, without having made a wager contingent thereon, or to claim, collect or take an amount greater than the amount won.

4. Knowingly to entice or induce another to go to any place where a gambling game is being conducted or operated in violation of the provisions of this chapter, with the intent that the other person play or participate in that gambling game.

5. To place or increase a bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including past-posting and pressing bets.

6. To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

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Right there Nevada defines pulling back bets as criminal, and altering a bet after you know the outcome is criminal--doesn't matter much whether they call it fraud or larceny or robbery, it's a crime. IANAL, but winning this wouldn't seem to be a seriously difficult issue if there are written statements from multiple witnesses, and the victim and a witness or two (dealer, say) shows up in court to testify. But the guy will give in before it goes to court if the state shows that they are actually going to seriously pursue it.

Also seems like the chips and/or cash is the stolen property. People whose property is stolen have the property returned to them by the government after the criminal court case is over. If your car is stolen, you don't have to go to civil court to regain posession of the vehicle from the thief after the criminal case.

So I like OP's chances of eventually recovering the loot, IFF the Gaming guys actually pursue this and can get some district attorney to go along.

As for whether or not pushing the chips forward would matter, I'm not so sure. Unless the dealer pauses to sweep the stacks of chips into the middle, the chips remain right in front of the player. If that player just grabs 'em and pockets those that are in front of him, is that more of a crime than pocketing chips that are 8" closer after he says "all-in"?

ANYway... I'm impressed that the Caesars floor person did this. Chasing after the guy, if he actually had to run, was above and beyond the call of duty. Physically bringing him back to detain him is also impressive. Think about their liabilities... what does Caesars have to gain by having their people grab and hold poker table cheats? Just a potential lawsuit, and maybe the goodwill of players. FAR safer to just let the guy run. "oh gee, he got away...so sorry." I think Caesars done good.

[Rottersod]

"what does Caesars have to gain by having their people grab and hold poker table cheats? Just a potential lawsuit, and maybe the goodwill of players. FAR safer to just let the guy run. "oh gee, he got away...so sorry." I think Caesars done good."

Actually they open themselves up to a lot more litigation if they lie and say he "just got away". Everything in Vegas is stored on digital media and archived so it can easily be subpoenaed if an angry customer wanted to file a suit against them.

The goodwill of the players should not be underestimated either. Casino's are a service business and there are plenty of competitors there. Word spreads about casino's who allow their customers to be cheated.

Also, Caesars, like other casino's has plenty of good, well trained security personnel who can easily deal with a guy like this so it isn't dangerous for them to go after him and the floor would know he will be backed up quickly.

[PITTM]

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I wasn't there but this is what I was told by the Shift Manager I relieved

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just curious. how would you have handled this situation?

rj

[Jimbo]

bAV,

i LOOKED AT THE GAMING STATUTES AS WELL BUT INSOFAR AS i CAN TELL THEY ARE WRITTEN WITH THE CASINO VS A PLAYER IN MIND. nOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT PLAYER VS PLAYER IS EXCLUDED BUT EARLY IN THE TOTOALITY OF THE STATUTES THEY SEEM TO STATE THEAT THEY ARE APPLICABLE TO CASINO ACTION, i MAY BE WRONG.

jIMBO

arg, had caplock on, sorry too tired to edit.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]

bAV,

i LOOKED AT THE GAMING STATUTES AS WELL BUT INSOFAR AS i CAN TELL THEY ARE WRITTEN WITH THE CASINO VS A PLAYER IN MIND. nOWHERE DOES IT SAY THAT PLAYER VS PLAYER IS EXCLUDED BUT EARLY IN THE TOTOALITY OF THE STATUTES THEY SEEM TO STATE THEAT THEY ARE APPLICABLE TO CASINO ACTION, i MAY BE WRONG.

jIMBO

arg, had caplock on, sorry too tired to edit.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you not notice that Capslock is on while you're typing?

Seriously, I can't believe people are arguing that there's a chance what this person did wasn't illegal. First, this is LAS VEGAS. As somebody else pointed out, casinos are the economy, there will be laws up the wazoo on the books to protect casinos from any conceivable problem.

To the casinos this isn't a matter of one person losing $1000, its a matter of faith in the casinos. If people stop trusting them, their business is done. Anyway, as the guy that posted the nevada gaming rules has shown, its perfectly clear that this was illegal.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you not notice that Capslock is on while you're typing?

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Seriously? I have a wireless keyboard and the caplock light is on the receiver, out of my sight, sorry I botherd you with it.

Jimbo

[Jimbo]

Just for the record I personally never argued that it was not illegal. I made a point that I think he would win at a criminal jury trial but still lose in a civil suit. As far as the gaming regs go I'm still fairly confident they will not apply to poker action.

Jimbo

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How do you not notice that Capslock is on while you're typing?

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Seriously? I have a wireless keyboard and the caplock light is on the receiver, out of my sight, sorry I botherd you with it.

Jimbo

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Seriously, I was really just making a smart ass comment. I was more wondering how you didn't notice the text on the screen had capitals where you didn't expect them.

Edit: I'm not looking for an explanation for that either, since I'm sure there is one. It was just a funny statement, in my opinion.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
Just for the record I personally never argued that it was not illegal. I made a point that I think he would win at a criminal jury trial but still lose in a civil suit. As far as the gaming regs go I'm still fairly confident they will not apply to poker action.

Jimbo

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I think you are right about the gaming regs. It is illegal to alter a wager after the outcome is known. The outcome was not known when he altered his wager. I am very interested in seeing how this comes out, but I do not see them following through with prosecuting this guy (I think it is pretty common to charge someone and then not prosecute).

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just for the record I personally never argued that it was not illegal. I made a point that I think he would win at a criminal jury trial but still lose in a civil suit. As far as the gaming regs go I'm still fairly confident they will not apply to poker action.

Jimbo

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I think you are right about the gaming regs. It is illegal to alter a wager after the outcome is known. The outcome was not known when he altered his wager.

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No thats not what it says.

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6. To reduce the amount wagered or cancel the bet after acquiring knowledge of the outcome of the game or other event which is the subject of the bet, including pinching bets.

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He acquired knowledge by finding out that OP was going to call. Anyway, even if this isn't the relevant section of the law, I'm very confident its covered somewhere (I have no desire to go wading through Nevada gaming laws). Like I said above, to think otherwise is severly underestimating the gaming industry. Which is never a good idea when it comes to how they protect their profits.