Theory - EP in Full Ring

[jjb108]

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Assuming 1st orbit, no reads, small stakes ....

1. JJ - raise 4xBB
2. 22 - limp
3. 65s - fold
4. A7s - fold
5. KQs - fold
6. AJs - fold
7. AJo - fold



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Spot on IMO.

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Definately...OOP in FR is horrible. You're going to be called by better hands a lot. For crying out loud, even Doyle hates KQ in a full game.

If you have the post flop read skillz to play these profitably, you won't be in SSNL for long and you're going to kill the average SS player with UTG raises of KQs and the rest of the garbage. Wait for the button with these hands.

[Fly]

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It looks like that its the 6 max guys who advocate raising and we FR nits who limp.

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This is because the 6-maxers have no idea how to play in EP in FR.

[poincaraux]

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It looks like that its the 6 max guys who advocate raising and we FR nits who limp.

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This is because the 6-maxers have no idea how to play in EP in FR.

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If I'm going to play FR, I multi-table and play SUPER DUPER NITTY in EP. I *hate* it if I'm playing FR, I limp and someone raises behind me, since their hand ranges are often so much stronger than 6-max and I'm a lagtard. In all seriousness, how much EV do you think I'm giving up by playing super-nit-raise-or-fold-maybe-limp-pocket-pairs-if-i'm-feeling-frisky in EP?

[Dan Bitel]

WWWOOOOOWWWW,

there's some SERIOSOULY poor advice/reasoning going on here.

Any1 who says to limp AJ/KQ type hands are so very very wrong. You should fold these by default and maybe raise once every now and then. I mean, if you limp, and some1 in LP raises, WTF do you do? Play a possibly dominated hand OOP w/out initiative? Or do you limp/fold and waste 1BB pretty much the entire time?

99+ should be raised 100% of the time, and its now even close. We have the best hand often and i would HATE it to limp and for no1 to raise and be 3 or 4 way OOP with teh blinds getting a free look...YUCK

The only tricky hands really are low PP. In a game of donks, then yeah limping is OK in EP and prob slightly +EV. Raising on the other hand IMO is better. Obviously, if opponents are semi-observent, limping is just horrible as it telegraphs your hand. Much better to raise, get it HU and take it down with a cbet most the time, and win a MASSIVE pot when you flop a set vs TP

[Fly]

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WWWOOOOOWWWW,

there's some SERIOSOULY poor advice/reasoning going on here.

Any1 who says to limp AJ/KQ type hands are so very very wrong. You should fold these by default and maybe raise once every now and then. I mean, if you limp, and some1 in LP raises, WTF do you do? Play a possibly dominated hand OOP w/out initiative? Or do you limp/fold and waste 1BB pretty much the entire time?

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Agreed, is this even in dispute?

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99+ should be raised 100% of the time, and its now even close. We have the best hand often and i would HATE it to limp and for no1 to raise and be 3 or 4 way OOP with teh blinds getting a free look...YUCK

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LOL. 99 and TT often the best hand at a ten person table? Roflmao. 99 and TT are DRAWING hands in EP at FR. This is so trivially true, I consider it an axiom of FR play. Playing them like you play big pairs would be disastrous.


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The only tricky hands really are low PP. In a game of donks, then yeah limping is OK in EP and prob slightly +EV. Raising on the other hand IMO is better. Obviously, if opponents are semi-observent, limping is just horrible as it telegraphs your hand. Much better to raise, get it HU and take it down with a cbet most the time, and win a MASSIVE pot when you flop a set vs TP

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Open limping is HUGELY +EV. Open raising is HUGELY -EV. Open limping telegraphs your hand huh? Telegraphs to whom, to 2p2'ers? Good for [censored] them. That doesn't [censored] mattter. It doesn't telegraph it to the typical opponent who will gladly call a 3-bet w/ top pair no matter if they see you open limp a pair every single [censored] time.

[stinkpaw]

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According to my database its EV+ for me. Maybe its my poor post flop skill. I might limp reraise with QQ depending on how many callers and who the raiser is.

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Its the third best hand! So why limp it EP when you probably always raise AKo, a far inferior hand.

You dont want any AXs calling your limp. You want those As outta there!

[epdaws]

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WWWOOOOOWWWW,

there's some SERIOSOULY poor advice/reasoning going on here.

Any1 who says to limp AJ/KQ type hands are so very very wrong. You should fold these by default and maybe raise once every now and then. I mean, if you limp, and some1 in LP raises, WTF do you do? Play a possibly dominated hand OOP w/out initiative? Or do you limp/fold and waste 1BB pretty much the entire time?

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Agreed, is this even in dispute?

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99+ should be raised 100% of the time, and its now even close. We have the best hand often and i would HATE it to limp and for no1 to raise and be 3 or 4 way OOP with teh blinds getting a free look...YUCK

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LOL. 99 and TT often the best hand at a ten person table? Roflmao. 99 and TT are DRAWING hands in EP at FR. This is so trivially true, I consider it an axiom of FR play. Playing them like you play big pairs would be disastrous.


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The only tricky hands really are low PP. In a game of donks, then yeah limping is OK in EP and prob slightly +EV. Raising on the other hand IMO is better. Obviously, if opponents are semi-observent, limping is just horrible as it telegraphs your hand. Much better to raise, get it HU and take it down with a cbet most the time, and win a MASSIVE pot when you flop a set vs TP

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Open limping is HUGELY +EV. Open raising is HUGELY -EV. Open limping telegraphs your hand huh? Telegraphs to whom, to 2p2'ers? Good for [censored] them. That doesn't [censored] mattter. It doesn't telegraph it to the typical opponent who will gladly call a 3-bet w/ top pair no matter if they see you open limp a pair every single [censored] time.

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There is no other explanation other than to assume that Fly is a troll. None.

[Fly]

There is no other explanation other than to assume that epdraws is severely lacking in critical thinking skills.

Seriously though, I have posted the same criticism w/ regard to telegraphing twice and you have not addressed it. What is the point of this forum, to spew some cheap poorly thought out orthodoxy or argue forcefully and let the better argument prevail?

[epdaws]

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There is no other explanation other than to assume that epdraws is severely lacking in critical thinking skills.

Seriously though, I have posted the same criticism w/ regard to telegraphing twice and you have not addressed it. What is the point of this forum, to spew some cheap poorly thought out orthodoxy or argue forcefully and let the better argument prevail?

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Fly, you actually argued that when dealt TT in a full ring game, you don't have the best hand at the table. I think we're done here.

[Dan Bitel]

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WWWOOOOOWWWW,

there's some SERIOSOULY poor advice/reasoning going on here.

Any1 who says to limp AJ/KQ type hands are so very very wrong. You should fold these by default and maybe raise once every now and then. I mean, if you limp, and some1 in LP raises, WTF do you do? Play a possibly dominated hand OOP w/out initiative? Or do you limp/fold and waste 1BB pretty much the entire time?

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Agreed, is this even in dispute?



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not from you maybe, but from some

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LOL. 99 and TT often the best hand at a ten person table? Roflmao. 99 and TT are DRAWING hands in EP at FR. This is so trivially true, I consider it an axiom of FR play. Playing them like you play big pairs would be disastrous.

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preflop, TT is the 5th best hand, you really telling me that over 50% of the time, some1 has one of the top 4 hands?? If you're limp/calling 99/TT and c/f the flop everytime you miss a set...WOW..you're missing out on some serious value here

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Open limping is HUGELY +EV. Open raising is HUGELY -EV. Open limping telegraphs your hand huh? Telegraphs to whom, to 2p2'ers? Good for [censored] them. That doesn't [censored] mattter. It doesn't telegraph it to the typical opponent who will gladly call a 3-bet w/ top pair no matter if they see you open limp a pair every single [censored] time.

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OK, so we open limp. I presume we're c/f every time we don't flop a set? How often do pots get raised? like, at least 50% of the time? So we're l/c 5BB. And lets say the guy is NOT a nit, and his raise doesn't mean JJ+/AK and he cbets when you check to him, then its just not +EV to limp/call preflop, b/c you're folding the best hand far too often on the flop. Now lets presume he's a nit. Then yeah, you prob do have set odds, but remeber that the nits are also harder to stack a lot of the time, b/c they know what a limp/call UTG means.

Now how the [censored] can you think raising low PP UTG is -EV? IMO, raising ATC UTG is +EV so long as you don't do it too often (law of diminishing returns etc) when you flop cbet takes the pot down. And is soooo much easier to stack some1 in a raised pot than a limped pot, especially on a flop of rags when they don't believe you