DVD Discussion: Before Sunrise

[thecincykiddo]

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I feel the need to say, though, that regardless of whether you feel like he keeps his integrity by staying with his wife or by leaving her to join Celine, there's absolutely no integrity in him lying to her about anything important. That makes the last nine years of his life a fraud, and what we then get is character implosion. So that doesn't work.

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Agree. Well put.

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I disagree. I'm not saying Jesse is lying, all I'm saying is that's it's possible he's not being entirely truthful with Celine about his relationship with his wife. And why should he be? Let's pretend the movie is real life for a moment: if Jesse was a miserable in his marriage as he says he is don't you think he would leave? But marriages are complicated - one day you love the other person and the next you want to kill her!

Remember, Jesse's two days with Celine are his fantasy days - the days where all is right with the world and his life is perfect. But even as his marriage might not be as awful as he says it is, neither is his relationship with Celine as perfect as he hopes it is. It's romance, it's wishful thinking, it's hope. Jesse's not lying in either case, he's just doing what we all do - putting a spin on his life - the good and the bad. The truth is always clouded by our emotions.

Do they have a future together? I hope so. It's possible...but like life, it's complicated!

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Of course it's complicated, but how much are you reading into the film as opposed to picking up on all the cues that are inherent to the film as a whole? I shouldn't need to draw a line graph showing the vector quantities of the character's motivations and foibles, but even that would only graze the surface.

In order for this film to be a work of art, Jesse's character needs to be able to have that moment of purity, because it's the only thing that transcends the medium, it's the only thing that lasts.

We can agree to disagree if you like, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't provide any evidence that he might be lying about his relationship with his wife other than "that's what guys do." That works for a Hollywood test audience, but that doesn't work for something that so many people love because they...can't quite put their finger on it.

It kind of comes down to a choice: either you can look at this film as an offering from a director that allows you to place any kind of value or draw any sort of fantastic conclusion that you like, or you can try and see it the way that Linklater sees it.

[Dominic]

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I feel the need to say, though, that regardless of whether you feel like he keeps his integrity by staying with his wife or by leaving her to join Celine, there's absolutely no integrity in him lying to her about anything important. That makes the last nine years of his life a fraud, and what we then get is character implosion. So that doesn't work.

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Agree. Well put.

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I disagree. I'm not saying Jesse is lying, all I'm saying is that's it's possible he's not being entirely truthful with Celine about his relationship with his wife. And why should he be? Let's pretend the movie is real life for a moment: if Jesse was a miserable in his marriage as he says he is don't you think he would leave? But marriages are complicated - one day you love the other person and the next you want to kill her!

Remember, Jesse's two days with Celine are his fantasy days - the days where all is right with the world and his life is perfect. But even as his marriage might not be as awful as he says it is, neither is his relationship with Celine as perfect as he hopes it is. It's romance, it's wishful thinking, it's hope. Jesse's not lying in either case, he's just doing what we all do - putting a spin on his life - the good and the bad. The truth is always clouded by our emotions.

Do they have a future together? I hope so. It's possible...but like life, it's complicated!

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Of course it's complicated, but how much are you reading into the film as opposed to picking up on all the cues that are inherent to the film as a whole? I shouldn't need to draw a line graph showing the vector quantities of the character's motivations and foibles, but even that would only graze the surface.

In order for this film to be a work of art, Jesse's character needs to be able to have that moment of purity, because it's the only thing that transcends the medium, it's the only thing that lasts.

We can agree to disagree if you like, but that doesn't change the fact that you can't provide any evidence that he might be lying about his relationship with his wife other than "that's what guys do." That works for a Hollywood test audience, but that doesn't work for something that so many people love because they...can't quite put their finger on it.

It kind of comes down to a choice: either you can look at this film as an offering from a director that allows you to place any kind of value or draw any sort of fantastic conclusion that you like, or you can try and see it the way that Linklater sees it.

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I'm not saying it's in the movie. I'm simply extrapolating into real life. A fruitless exercise, to be sure, but it's a testament to how "real" the filmmaker and cast have made these characters. If we're going to answer Katy's question - do they stay together and does Jess leave his wife - then we have to go beyond what the movie is giving us and imagine it, right?

You say Jesse can't be lying because that would invalidate him as a character you love, but I say it's that possibility of "real life" intruding on our perfect Jesse and our perfect Celine that moves me much more than a simple movie ever could. True love is sometimes fleeting and hard...that's what grabs me about Before Sunset.

[BK_]

Such an awesome movie. I have seen Sunset 3 times now, and Sunrise once. Her impression of Nina Simone at the end "Baby, I think you are going to miss that plane" was one of the most memorable movie scenes of all time fo rme.

[SoloAJ]

Since the thread is dead and buried, I don't mind throwing this monster post on it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This is so long overdue. I know the discussion is old. And I know this is a long post. I realize that the Loungers may not even read this post, let alone respond to it. However, this movie(s) is so powerful for me, that I wanted to put my thoughts in, especially considering it was my DVD Club selection. Maybe, just maybe, I’ll get lucky and someone will take something from the tl;dr post of mine, and run with it or comment on it.

This post has a few things about the movie as a whole and a few comments on why I love the scenes I do. You’ve seen the movie, you know what I’m saying. This isn’t really “new information,” but it haunts me I never replied to this thread originally. I should also note that rewatching these this week, was only the 2nd time I’d seen either.

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In another thread about Before Sunrise, John Cole talked about how the dialogue wasn’t really “intellectual.” Katy said that she thought it was, given people who were around her (at least at the time of posting). Speaking as a 22 year old, I would contend that it is very intellectual given their ages. Unless my impression was wrong, John Cole teaches university students (wrong?). I would think he would agree with me then when I say that the average 22 and 23 year old isn’t exactly talking about the things Jesse and Celine talk about.

An example of this is her speech on “things I hate” on the bus. It shows a self-awareness that I really don’t see in most girls around here. I also don’t see too many guys as reflective as Jesse. This is natural, I think, given the fact that he has had a two week moratorium traveling Europe. Most people here on campus can’t think past the bars.

The dialogue may not be intellectual by most standards, but if I overheard two people talking like this in a restaurant on campus, I would be pretty impressed. This may be telling of our college society, but I think it’s true nonetheless.

For what it’s worth, I think that I talk like this a lot and it annoys some of my friends. Sometimes it becomes “too much” for them. I would absolutely love to be able to talk freely and interact back and forth with someone in a way the setting of the movie depicts. They’re so free in their thoughts and with each other. I feel qualified to better speak on nature of a 22 year old’s view of Before Sunrise than most other Loungers. Sure you were all there at one point, but I’m still there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Which leads me to another topic of interest when talking about these movies. I appreciate Before Sunset. I think it’s brilliant and the way in which it was directed. I can see the emotion, the tension. It is a thing of beauty. My problem is that I simply can’t relate to it on the level that the rest of the Loungers seem to. I don’t have enough life experience in these sorts of matters to really feel it. I don’t have some lost love where I threw it away for bad reasons or similar. No big relationship regrets. So that nine years of “What If?” is just something that I can’t relate to. As much as I love Before Sunrise right now, I’m guessing that Before Sunset will be my favorite in 10 years.


One scene that gets a lot of love in Before Sunset is in the car when she tries to put her hand on his head or what not, but pulls back as he turns to face her. I have always been fond of the similar moment in Before Sunrise. On the bus, near the beginning, she is talking and leaning/looking down. Her hair is falling across her face and Jesse cannot see her. He starts to reach down to brush the hair out of the way so he can see her face, just as she sits up. She notices this motion and immediately pulls her hair back. I’ve always loved that scene because it strikes me as something that most guys wouldn’t do. I don’t know, something about it seemed intimate, which was a big hook for me in believing his legitimate interest in her so early in the movie.

My heart aches watching the record booth scene. KISS HER, MAN! Oh, it just kills me. The smiles. Her batting her eyes and licking her lips. I love how she watches him to try and get inside his thoughts from his facial reactions. You can read each of their thoughts the entire time. And they only make direct eye contact once the entire scene, at the very beginning.

The scene is just amazing. I think that it is even better on subsequent viewings because of the “fake telephone” conversation. We get to learn just how unsure of himself he really was. It is one of the most wonderful cinematic moments I can think of (mostly because I’m a sucker for depictions of little moments of life like that).
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Two lines that stick with me are during the fake phone scene.

“I was so unsure of myself I thought everything I said sounded so stupid.
Oh man, I wouldn’t worry about that.
No?
No. Im sure she was not judging you. And by the way, she sat next to you, no? I’m sure she did it on purpose.”

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“And he’s so cute. He has beautiful blue eyes. Nice big lips. Greasy hair. Haha, I love it. He’s kind of tall and he’s a little clumsy. I like to feel his eyes on me when I look away.”

For some reason, both of these really stick with me. The first one because it just suits me perfectly. I would never imagine a girl sat near me on purpose, haha.

The second one sticks with me because it’s so adorable and heartfelt. Jesse finds out how incredible he makes her feel with this line. It’s one of those “man, I wish I could make someone feel that way like he does” things.

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Back on Sunset, I think that the introduction doesn’t get enough admiration. I thought it was exceptional. It reminds of the Sunrise, but it also shows the kind of person Jesse is now. His discussion with the guests amazes me every time because he knows the answers, but he doesn’t want to just tell them….whether that be because he is the author or because of how disappointing reliving that question of “Did she show?” must be for him. This combined with the way Celine first shows up on screen in current time in the second one are great. They do these flashbacks of her, and suddenly the screen flashes to her and at first I thought it was a flashback…then you realize it is her. The way it is done is almost surreal, much like it must be for Jesse sitting there.


Okay, I could write more on both films (especially Sunset), but this will suffice for the purposes of lifting the regret of never posting in this thread off my shoulders. Yay for these movies. Thanks Lounge for getting me to watch them some time ago (probably from older OOT).


Biggest Regret After Every Viewing: Why didn’t they go see the play!?! “I’m the cow!”

[Dominic]

great post, Solo!

I think you're right that you would know better about their conversation, being 22. And I'm amazed you're aware enough to realize why "Sunset" maybe isn't right for you quite yet and why it's perfect for us older Loungers. And yes, I do think it will grow on you as you go through life's ups and downs.

Nice point about the beginning, too...I always thought it was a brilliant way to "recap" what had gone on in the first movie.

Please feel free to write as much you want on this movie, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy reading it.

[SoloAJ]

To be entirely honest, I am rewatching both films tonight, despite rewatching them both a few nights ago. It's a slow night for me and these seemed worth rewatching. I wrote that post as I was watching Before Sunrise, and now I'm stuck rewatching the car scene over and over (him explaining his dream). I have no idea how I didn't realize they were both crying during this scene other times.

I wish I had been around for the discussion originally, because I love reading other people's views on this movie, what they like, what hits home for them, etc.

I'm glad that you (and maybe others) will read it. I figured some might, as this movie is the type of thing where I just WANT to read what others think about it. I figured this movie had that effect for other Loungers.

Dom, I definitely like to think about things that would make me more self-aware and aware in general. This movie(s) has done a lot for me I think in that way.


One question I had for Loungers is how married people relate to Before Sunset? I would imagine it is entirely different than the 'single' Loungers because they might not have the regrets that the characters have (or to that degree)..of lost chances.

Ugh, I'm rambling. I will write more later, hopefully some others chime in.

Thanks for giving me hope and replying Dom. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Dominic]

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To be entirely honest, I am rewatching both films tonight, despite rewatching them both a few nights ago. It's a slow night for me and these seemed worth rewatching. I wrote that post as I was watching Before Sunrise, and now I'm stuck rewatching the car scene over and over (him explaining his dream). I have no idea how I didn't realize they were both crying during this scene other times.

I wish I had been around for the discussion originally, because I love reading other people's views on this movie, what they like, what hits home for them, etc.

I'm glad that you (and maybe others) will read it. I figured some might, as this movie is the type of thing where I just WANT to read what others think about it. I figured this movie had that effect for other Loungers.

Dom, I definitely like to think about things that would make me more self-aware and aware in general. This movie(s) has done a lot for me I think in that way.


One question I had for Loungers is how married people relate to Before Sunset? I would imagine it is entirely different than the 'single' Loungers because they might not have the regrets that the characters have (or to that degree)..of lost chances.

Ugh, I'm rambling. I will write more later, hopefully some others chime in.

Thanks for giving me hope and replying Dom. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Everyone will read your post because the "Before" movies are, I think, the UNOFFICIAL LOUNGE MOVIES!

And while I've never been married, I have been in a few long-term relationships that were about to evolve into marriage...and what I get from Before Sunset is an incredible sense of romantic melancholy, of choices made and not made, that when you look back at your life you wonder what might have been.

But the problem with doing that after a certain age is that it also comes with a healthy does of "reality-check cynicism." While fantasizing about the girl that got away you also realize with a chuckle that it probably wouldn't have worked out anyways! But we're not yet too cynical to still want to give it a go, again and again...

What's so remarkable to me about these movies is the incredible book ends they make and how they work together as a whole. I found myself spending DAYS thinking about Celine and Jesse's lives between the movies! Wondering about them and how they got from Sunrise to Sunset.

I really do feel these two films will become classics in their own right; they're already touchstone films for more than one generation, and I suspect, generations to come.

[Enrique]

Great post SoloAJ. You made me remember several really cool scenes in the movie. Scenes that I had already forgotten (last time I saw this was 2 years ago).

I liked how you mentioned people don't seem to talk the way they do, but that you talk that way sometimes. I had the good luck, that I met people that I could talk to in high school and I am still friends with them. Every time I go to my hometown, some friends and I got to IHOP (I know not exactly an intellectual place to go) and we sit and talk for all night about life.
Conversations are really amazing. It is funny how, talking with a stranger on a bus or a train can make me feel so much better. I remember many conversations I've had with strangers on buses. Sitting next to a cute girl, and then talking to her and realizing she's way more interesting than you could have imagined always feels good. Sitting next to a guy and talking about what makes life worth living is also a wonderful experience.
A movie like this, made me try talking to strangers more. I was very shy in High School, but as I grow I get less and less shy. I am still very young (23), but I can relate to some scenes in Before Sunrise a lot (my first love, which I met out of town), and I guess it is simple to relate to movies that just give out a vibe that life is wonderful.

[Yeti]

For little reason other than because I can :

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nQpYHiB0k6k&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nQpYHiB0k6k&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

[diebitter]

Yeti,

nice work!

I tried to find this on youtube a week ago, and couldn't.