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#71
08-18-2007, 12:22 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're missing that when you rr w QQ he's either folding or shoving, so your raise/fold line turns your hand into a bluff and puts you in a horrible situation should he shove. [/ QUOTE ] not really. First of all, I don't mind him folding hands like AQ, AJ, nor do I mind him folding his junky suited connector or small pocket pair hands. I would MUCH rather prefer to take the 7k in the middle then see a flop 5 ways with QQ having no idea where I am in the hand. Also, as other people in this thread have pointed out, he could shove JJ/AK (because my hand looks fishy), so my hand doesn't turn completely into a bluff, so I'm not really sure what you're saying. dlpnyc21 
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#72
08-18-2007, 12:26 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think you're missing that when you rr w QQ he's either folding or shoving, so your raise/fold line turns your hand into a bluff and puts you in a horrible situation should he shove. [/ QUOTE ] not really. First of all, I don't mind him folding hands like AQ, AJ, nor do I mind him folding his junky suited connector or small pocket pair hands. I would MUCH rather prefer to take the 7k in the middle then see a flop 5 ways with QQ having no idea where I am in the hand. Also, as other people in this thread have pointed out, he could shove JJ/AK (because my hand looks fishy), so my hand doesn't turn completely into a bluff, so I'm not really sure what you're saying. dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] eh? He's shoving worse hands, but you're folding so......
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#73
08-18-2007, 12:28 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think you're missing that when you rr w QQ he's either folding or shoving, so your raise/fold line turns your hand into a bluff and puts you in a horrible situation should he shove. [/ QUOTE ] not really. First of all, I don't mind him folding hands like AQ, AJ, nor do I mind him folding his junky suited connector or small pocket pair hands. I would MUCH rather prefer to take the 7k in the middle then see a flop 5 ways with QQ having no idea where I am in the hand. Also, as other people in this thread have pointed out, he could shove JJ/AK (because my hand looks fishy), so my hand doesn't turn completely into a bluff, so I'm not really sure what you're saying. dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] eh? He's shoving worse hands, but you're folding so...... [/ QUOTE ] lol, i called like the donkey i am...
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#75
08-18-2007, 12:45 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I think you're missing that when you rr w QQ he's either folding or shoving, so your raise/fold line turns your hand into a bluff and puts you in a horrible situation should he shove. [/ QUOTE ] not really. First of all, I don't mind him folding hands like AQ, AJ, nor do I mind him folding his junky suited connector or small pocket pair hands. I would MUCH rather prefer to take the 7k in the middle then see a flop 5 ways with QQ having no idea where I am in the hand. Also, as other people in this thread have pointed out, he could shove JJ/AK (because my hand looks fishy), so my hand doesn't turn completely into a bluff, so I'm not really sure what you're saying. dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] eh? He's shoving worse hands, but you're folding so...... [/ QUOTE ] lol, i called like the donkey i am... [/ QUOTE ] 
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#76
08-18-2007, 01:10 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Why would you ever make this "backraise" with QQ if you're going to fold to a shove. [/ QUOTE ] because there is 7kish in dead $ in the middle and i'd like to take it down preflop without showdown? what am i missing here? dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] So why does it matter that you have QQ if you're folding to a shove? You could have any two and reraise / fold here, no? Tell me, is your reraise for value or is it a bluff? If it's a bluff, what the hell better hands are folding? And if it's for value, then it really should be a no brainer call. Still, the point is that this "back raise" looks very suspicious and to thinking players you aren't really representing much, especially if you haven't implemented it before and the other players are aware of that (which they apparently are). You're really repping AA/KK/air when you do this, and when you add QQ to your range it should be because you think you can confidently get it in against stuff like AK/JJ. Against this guy raise/call > call initial reraise > raise/fold, IMO. Anyways David, you obviously have great intuition, but I think your logic for hands could use a little work.
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#77
08-21-2007, 11:08 AM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
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[ QUOTE ] results please? [/ QUOTE ] he had AK and I held. [/ QUOTE ] You held because im sure the SB, BB and the initial raiser all were sharing his outs. He may have been drawing to one live out..Sick hand.
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#78
08-21-2007, 11:14 AM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Why would you ever make this "backraise" with QQ if you're going to fold to a shove. [/ QUOTE ] because there is 7kish in dead $ in the middle and i'd like to take it down preflop without showdown? what am i missing here? dlpnyc21 [/ QUOTE ] So why does it matter that you have QQ if you're folding to a shove? You could have any two and reraise / fold here, no? Tell me, is your reraise for value or is it a bluff? If it's a bluff, what the hell better hands are folding? And if it's for value, then it really should be a no brainer call. Still, the point is that this "back raise" looks very suspicious and to thinking players you aren't really representing much, especially if you haven't implemented it before and the other players are aware of that (which they apparently are). You're really repping AA/KK/air when you do this, and when you add QQ to your range it should be because you think you can confidently get it in against stuff like AK/JJ. Against this guy raise/call > call initial reraise > raise/fold, IMO. Anyways David, you obviously have great intuition, but I think your logic for hands could use a little work. [/ QUOTE ] In very deep stacked natured games I've seen the back raise played very similarly to how this hand was played with AA and KK.
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#79
08-21-2007, 01:27 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
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[ QUOTE ] when i was a relatively inexperienced bigger live NL player, I fell for the backraise a few times, and shoved random stuff in pretty much the same spot as the kid here (though giving worse odds on the call) because I didn't buy it. Each time I was shown a big pair. So I'd stack off here, he's probably just confused. But i'd give him more rope in the first place probably. [/ QUOTE ] The one problem is how many people he has to shove against. He has literally 3 other callers between me and him, so when he shoves v. my back raise, he has to assume his hand is good enough to beat all 3 other hands, including my hand. Is this any consideration to a fold? When I raised, I decided I would be best off folding to a shove (because of the reason stated above), but when I chose the amount, I laid myself such a sick price that I had to call. [/ QUOTE ] dude, you reallllly need to play around with pokerstove for 5 minutes. given relevant info folding after you reraise is so absurd i cant believe youre even contemplating it.
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#80
08-21-2007, 01:31 PM
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Re: The New York Back Raise...25/50 Live
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] when i was a relatively inexperienced bigger live NL player, I fell for the backraise a few times, and shoved random stuff in pretty much the same spot as the kid here (though giving worse odds on the call) because I didn't buy it. Each time I was shown a big pair. So I'd stack off here, he's probably just confused. But i'd give him more rope in the first place probably. [/ QUOTE ] The one problem is how many people he has to shove against. He has literally 3 other callers between me and him, so when he shoves v. my back raise, he has to assume his hand is good enough to beat all 3 other hands, including my hand. Is this any consideration to a fold? When I raised, I decided I would be best off folding to a shove (because of the reason stated above), but when I chose the amount, I laid myself such a sick price that I had to call. [/ QUOTE ] dude, you reallllly need to play around with pokerstove for 5 minutes. given relevant info folding after you reraise is so absurd i cant believe youre even contemplating it. [/ QUOTE ] u missed the entire point of the hand, but thanks though. the fking point is that once i backraise i'm committed to calling a shove regardless because of "pokerstove" ranges. thanks for the awesome insight after many people have already posted this. what's funny is that you quoted something which states exactly what you wrote about, yet you decided to waste the time to write it anyways.
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