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#71
09-17-2007, 06:46 PM
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Re: And His Point Is?.....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Any judgment of a war that sets aside moral and ethical issues is an invalid judgment. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know about invalid, but its certainly irrelevant. [/ QUOTE ] So how would you explain the many wars throughout history that have been waged for gain? I don't think "invalid" or "irrelevant" have much to do with those real cases. I'm trying to take a realist's view of the situation. Morals and ethics usually only go so far when it gets to the nitty-gritty. The world operates on ethics and morals only to an extent, and that extent changes with conditions and perceptions. [/ QUOTE ] If your point is that wars have been fought for gain, we agree. 
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#72
09-17-2007, 06:57 PM
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Re: And His Point Is?.....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Any judgment of a war that sets aside moral and ethical issues is an invalid judgment. [/ QUOTE ] I don't know about invalid, but its certainly irrelevant. [/ QUOTE ] So how would you explain the many wars throughout history that have been waged for gain? I don't think "invalid" or "irrelevant" have much to do with those real cases. I'm trying to take a realist's view of the situation. Morals and ethics usually only go so far when it gets to the nitty-gritty. The world operates on ethics and morals only to an extent, and that extent changes with conditions and perceptions. [/ QUOTE ] If your point is that wars have been fought for gain, we agree. [/ QUOTE ] Fine. So...when the perceived gain of a war for oil gets great enough, a war might actually be fought for oil. I'm trying to point out that the potential gain might already be much larger than what most people might have guessed or evaluated (if they've even thought about it, which I doubt most people have). To me, all of that carries certain potential implications which cannot be lightly dismissed.
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#73
09-17-2007, 07:26 PM
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Re: And His Point Is?.....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] The United States has no need to invade those countries because they have very strong relationships with them. They guarantee protection of their country in exchange for cheap oil. [/ QUOTE ] Oh? Oil is cheap? Why does it cost $40 to fill my gas tank if oil is cheap? Answer: You don't know what your talking about. [/ QUOTE ] $40 dollars to fill up your tank is very cheap. Go to any country in Europe and you will pay double that. The reason why you are paying more now than you did 5 years ago is because of the collapse of the dollar. OPEC wants more dollars per barrel of oil because the dollar has fallen off a cliff. Thank your buddies at the Federal Reserve for that.
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#74
09-17-2007, 07:35 PM
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Re: And His Point Is?.....
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[ QUOTE ] It had to do with oil, like almost all of the wars of the past 150 yrs. [/ QUOTE ] I look forward to paying 50 cent per gallon gas should your prediction be true. [/ QUOTE ] This is how the neocon zionists work. They twist your comments around to try to make you look foolish. I did not predict that gas would go to 50 cents a gallon like you suggested I did. You are a fraud.
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#75
09-17-2007, 07:38 PM
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Re: Making Lucid Posts is TOOOO Much Work.....
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on the culture but for Iraq we should have found a Kurdish version of Saddam and (1)established a Kurdish dictarship. [/ QUOTE ] The kurds are smaller in numbers then both the Shia and Sunnis aren't they? Why the hell would most the people in Iraq even think of that government as legitimate? A dictatorship? Are you kidding?? Bush could have never had the approval of the American people if he went in there intent on installing a new dictator. [ QUOTE ] (2)Also we did not bring enough troops for the occupation. [/ QUOTE ] Possibly, but we would likely need a draft for that. The American people have not at any time supported a draft in Iraq. [ QUOTE ] (3)Martial law should have been declared and looters shot in the streets. The Arabs have a saying, "Better 100 years of tyranny than one day of anarchy". This is a central theme in their culture which Bush ignored. Shooting looters would have gained respect. But don't believe me. Read Thomas Friedman's book "From Beirut to Jerusulem". Specifically the chapter on "Hamas Rules". [/ QUOTE ] Doesn't sound bad. Is the police/military forces having big problems by letting this go? [ QUOTE ] (4)When it became clear that Syria and Iran were aiding the insurgency, American bomber should have bomb them...specifically their economic assets. [/ QUOTE ] Is it clear (from independent agencies)? Anyways, this didn't work out too great in Vietnam. What exactly makes you think we aren't making ourselves more enemies by striking at economic assets and putting their civilians in more poverty? All this would create is blowback and more resistence in Iraq. [ QUOTE ] (5) Not securing arms depots was a critical mistake. [/ QUOTE ] Not doubting this, but do you have a link to this? This seems like quite a mistake. [ QUOTE ] (6) Not using the Kurdish militias to establish security was another mistake. [/ QUOTE ] Why the kurds? [ QUOTE ] Oh? That is more than I know. Can you provide links supporting BOTH these claims? The war itself was a cakewalk.....the occupation has been tough. [/ QUOTE ] yup. <u> Reconstruction will be paid for with Iraqi oil (something we are now paying for instead </u> The Wolfowitz Chronology [ QUOTE ] March 27, 2003 Wolfowitz again tells Congress that oil should pay for Iraq’s reconstruction. “The oil revenues of that country could bring between $50 and $100 billion over the course of the next two or three years. Now, there are a lot of claims on that money, but… We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon.”[39] [/ QUOTE ] <u>Iraq "cakewalk"</u> No Iraq 'Cakewalk' [ QUOTE ] Three years ago in The Washington Post, Ken Adelman, formerly an assistant to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, promised us "Cakewalk In Iraq." [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The war itself was a cakewalk.....the occupation has been tough. [/ QUOTE ] Doesn't matter. If American citizens new that the war would be easy but the occupation would be a disaster and a quagmire they wouldn't have supported the war. As for me I call this part of the war, and I'm sure the average soldier thinks the same thing. [ QUOTE ] You are not quoting the polls accurately. Most Iraqis want us to EVENTUALLY leave. [/ QUOTE ] The permanent bases we're building tell us they'll likely to be in Iraq for a long time (decades) just like Europe, Japan, South Korea, and Saudi Arabia. Our presence in Saudi Arabia directly led to OBL's call for Fatwah against America which directly led to the 9/11 attacks. Our current presence in Iraq will likely lead to the same thing if we stay there indefintely, which we likely will.
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#76
09-17-2007, 07:40 PM
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Re: Making Lucid Posts is TOOOO Much Work.....
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Read Thomas Friedman's book "From Beirut to Jerusulem". Specifically the chapter on "Hamas Rules". [/ QUOTE ] Great suggestion. Let me read a Zionists opinion on public enemy #1. I pretty much can tell from your comments and your hatred that you are from that neck of the woods. That is my guess at least.
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#77
09-17-2007, 07:41 PM
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Re: And His Point Is?.....
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] The United States has no need to invade those countries because they have very strong relationships with them. They guarantee protection of their country in exchange for cheap oil. [/ QUOTE ] Oh? Oil is cheap? Why does it cost $40 to fill my gas tank if oil is cheap? Answer: You don't know what your talking about. [/ QUOTE ] $40 dollars to fill up your tank is very cheap. Go to any country in Europe and you will pay double that. The reason why you are paying more now than you did 5 years ago is because of the collapse of the dollar. OPEC wants more dollars per barrel of oil because the dollar has fallen off a cliff. Thank your buddies at the Federal Reserve for that. [/ QUOTE ] Gasoline costs about 9 cents per litre in Iran. So "cheap" is not always what you presume it to be. The reason Europeans pay so much for gasoline is because their governments rape them with gas taxes. The reason Americans pay so much is for similar reasons plus because Americans pay huge $$$ to support corrupt regimes and sheikhs in the Middle East who get their money by selling the country's oil. Europeans are willing sheep; Americans are ignorant or uncaring sheep. Anyway, oil is a huge price-gouge racket (by our own governments via taxes and by foreign corrupts to whom we willingly pay through the nose). Quite frankly I'm surprised that the people of the West have taken this level of abuse from their own governments and from foreign corrupt billionaires (who happen to hate them also) for such a long stretch of time.
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#78
09-17-2007, 07:45 PM
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Re: Making Lucid Posts is TOOOO Much Work.....
[ QUOTE ]
Our presence in Saudi Arabia directly led to OBL's call for Fatwah against America which directly led to the 9/11 attacks. Our current presence in Iraq will likely lead to the same thing if we stay there indefintely, which we likely will. [/ QUOTE ] Staying in Iraq indefinitely is exactly what Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden want. The longer the troops are in Iraq, the more support they are getting from the Muslim world. The war was lost before it started.
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#79
09-17-2007, 08:12 PM
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Re: Making Lucid Posts is TOOOO Much Work.....
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Great suggestion. Let me read a Zionists opinion on public enemy #1. [/ QUOTE ] Actually Friedman, though Jewish, is not supportive of Israel's policy in the Middle East. I think Friedman writes excellent well researched books but draws the wrong conclusions. [ QUOTE ] pretty much can tell from your comments and your hatred that you are from that neck of the woods. That is my guess at least. [/ QUOTE ] You guess wrong. I was born in Texas and I was raised Methodist. Although I'm no longer religious. When I was in college I was anti-Israel. Once in ROTC I chasized a Army Captain for making a pro-Israel remark in class. Being a mere cadet at the time, I'm surprised he did not put my ass in a sling. He said nothing but looked at me in shock. Looking back, I'm stunned that an aspiring military officer would verbal attack a superior officer. But I got away with it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Today I'm pro-Israel. So you see, wisdom does come with age....
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#80
09-17-2007, 08:46 PM
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Re: Making Lucid Posts is TOOOO Much Work.....REDUX
The following is a recap of the participation of two posters in this string.
Feelits Titskies………woof, woof, woof, woof. Kopernicuss………..Arf, arf, arf, arf. Feelits Titskies………woof, woof, woof, woof, WOOF! Kopernicuss………..Arf, arf, arf, arf, ARF! Feelits Titskies………woof, woof, woof, woof, WOOF, WOOF!! Kopernicuss………..Arf, arf, arf, arf, ARF, ARF! Feelits Titskies…….. woof, arf, woof, arf, woof, arf, woof, arf, WOOF, ARF, WOOF!! Kopernicuss………..Arf, woof, arf, woof, arf, woof, arf, woof, ARF, WOOF, ARF!! No specific value is implied or intended by the above commentary. ……..I’ll leave that to the greater minds here. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
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