Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.

[SlowHabit]

a. I bet.
b. Because he might have 22-77. Also hands such as AQ-AT. He might has a lower flush draw or opened straight draw and Hero might win a big pot if both hit.
c. $15. Or if I feel frisky, $22.
d. I will bet again on turn. After he calls flop bet ($15), pot will be $47. Assume it's $50 so it's easy to discuss. I might overbet here so that I have a nice shove amount by the river.

a-c. same as above.
d. By the time we get to the river and hasn't see aggression, Villain probably has a holding like k10 (obv) or drawing. It's hard for him to make a Hero call without past history. Betting 1/3 or 1/4 pot [probably better choice] will get us a nice crying call because "omg ... pot odds."

[Ship Ship McGipp]

a. I bet
b. Because a lot of the value in my hand will be gained from the time that i win without a showdown, since I only have ace high at the moment. since i know his hand, it will be fairly easy to take him off of it most of the time depending on the cards on following streets.
c. 12
d. 2 barrel almost all turns that don't improve him. 3/4 of the pot. perhaps less if i turn a spade or an ace.



a. yes
b. because a lot of the value in my hand will be putting in money with the best hand against a second best made hand, which he happends to have. this situation is great for us, and we'd only stop if he improved.
c. 12
d. i would continue forcibly on all turns that were not a ten or a nine.

[sdfsdf]

h1: bet 3/4, 3/4, then overbet the river if missed
h2: 3/4, 2/3, then 1/2

[Chaostracize]

Rob-

I read your responses, and I think your ideas on hand 1 are wrong. If you are telling us we shouldn't be trying to B-3B this hand you are nuts. You think KT calls the 3B/push every single time it raises? No way, I think that assumption is so, so, so wrong. There are a decent clip of 200 nl players who will raise with a decent TP hand to "see where it's at", and I really don't think we are worrying about opponents at this level who recognize how drawheavy this board is and will raise with TP to induce a SB shove (which would be a super read dependant play anyway).

Also, this is not a spot to keep the pot small even if you are a slight dog. Who cares. It's so important to build the pot, and the flop is the street to bet cause you can build exponentially by the river. I think 3 barreling (when you miss) is horrible, and you have to have some very specific reads to be betting an opponent off TPMK at 200 nl. But getting money in the flop is trying to get your opponent off his hand, it's to get money in when you hit. If you hit then I like bet, bet, bet. If the turn comes 6 or under and you miss, then I CR. I think so many villains who call the flop and bet the turn, will be folding to a turn CR, and you've won a lot more money. I'm surprised this line hasn't been mentioned because I think it's the best line in this scenario. If he checks through, that's fine, too. I personally think the most difficult part of hand one is what you do on the river when you hit, and you've bet the flop and checked the turn. I think a lot of villain's will half pot there, and half will talk themselves into a call of the CR. Of course, I think virtually all 200 nl players will call a river PSB, so I'll let someone else work it out, but I think both plays are fine.

Also, obviously, reads on the opponent would be nice. But against a solid enough play, bet (c), CRai is my play of choice (if he obliges on the turn by betting).

Hand 2...bet bet bet. Obv.

[Nielsio]

A point considering the fundaments:


Bobbo, you mention that mathematically we should check the flop because we know his cards. However, another factor is how should villain play if he knew OUR cards. And if you check and call and wake up on a 3-flush, then you are letting him play much! more perfect to the ideal.

[Bookworm]

grunching:
1. Yes i bet. 13$ or so. I want to build a pot, so i can stack him if i hit a flush. First thought is not to bet the Turn, if i dont hit, but thats probably a mistake. Betting the Turn and knowing hes hand could be better.
He has to be somewhat passive and willing to call down if a spade hits for this - else checking is better. As villian cannot push me of the hand, then calling turn.
2. Im betting 16 for value here. Betting turn when im ahead and slowing down if he hits.

[Chaos_ult]

Chaostrasize: I think Bobo's argument is that the cards that hit us are the only real scare cards in the deck, thus making it more likely that villian will just fold if we bet when those particular cards fall. So building the pot for when we hit is somewhat moot because he folds a lot of the time.

[Hince]

Interesting analysis Bobbo. However, it doesn't allow our opponent to make a big mistake. We have complete knowledge and our opponents doesn't. Yet, we aren't causing him to make a huge mistake unless he decides to check the turn. His biggest edge in the hand is on the turn when we miss. If he makes a mistake at that point we profit.

It seems my earlier post about c/ring has been somewhat ignored but this is why I like a c/r on the turn. We raise before the flop and either bet the flop or c/c. Then on the turn we give him the option to make a mistake by checking, and if he doesn't comply we give him the option of making a bigger mistake by folding.

We raised before the flop gave some action on a king high flop, then c/r the turn. I really doubt KT is calling very often to that kind of heat. And this line gives him two options to make fairly large mistakes.

[Isura]

[ QUOTE ]
Chaostrasize: I think Bobo's argument is that the cards that hit us are the only real scare cards in the deck, thus making it more likely that villian will just fold if we bet when those particular cards fall. So building the pot for when we hit is somewhat moot because he folds a lot of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. Another point is that a check/call line WON'T look like a flush draw to most 1/2 opponents, but more like scared underpair/3rd pair that wants to keep the pot small. So if villain is trying to somewhat read hands (and I think many 1/2 players do try), then won't put us on a flush when we hit, so we can go pot pot on turn river and get paid very often.

[dfan]

Very interesting thread. A lot of times I will put my opponent on something like TPMK like in hand one so it is useful to think through what I would do if I knew that were the case.

However, for hand one, I disagree completely with Bobbo's recommendations for the games I play in. In the games I play (both 1/$2 home games and .5/$1 online), my opponent is going to fold TPMK to a C/R all-in on the flop well over 50% of the time. If I had to guess, it would be like 75% of the time. Do opponents really call most of the time at normal 1/2 online games?

Also, if I check my opponent is going make a 3/4 PSB or full PSB most of the time to make sure he isn't giving my drawing hands odds to see the turn card. So I like a 1/3 pot bet so I get drawing odds if called, and if raised I have mucho FE when I C/R push, so win-win.

So either I'm missing something fundamental, or Bobbo is playing in much more different games than I'm seeing. Which is it?