Pooh-Bah - Crushing Short Stacks

[Landlord79]

Bump* I'm gonna attempt to read this today.

[Cry Me A River]

I've been thinking.

I've been thinking that maybe there should be four categories of short stackers, not just three:

Loose, bad short stackers
Tight, bad short stackers
Good short stackers
Excellent short stackers

I think this thread is a good start towards dealing with the first three types of short stackers. However, several of these "cutting edge" short stackers have been insisting that they are way ahead in this arms race.

I'm inclined to believe them.

One thing this thread has really highlighted is that the only people really thinking about short stackers and playing against short stackers are the short stackers themselves.

This thread is the first substantive look at playing against short stackers in this forum. There are also very few hands posted in this forum that deal with hands played against short stackers. It's possible that there have been other, good posts on this topic in other forums (I'm thinking in particular we can probably borrow a lot from tournament strategy where short stack vs big stack is really common even though there are obviously other big differences between tournament and ring), however it's really telling that the most substantial discussion generated by this thread was how to account for the rake.

If my post "sucks", then the quality of play against short stackers a week ago, before this thread, must have been really bad.

My posts are the result of a few days thought and a few hours writing. It's quite possible I've only scratched the surface, particularly if the top short stackers have come up with set plays that amount to more than squeezes and stop&gos and if they are spending their time developing new and better strategies against full stacks.

So maybe you should keep that in mind when playing with these guys...

Not that it makes a tremendous difference. These kinds of short stackers are exceedingly rare at $100NL FR and below, still really rare at $200NL FR and you generally have much more to worry about from the good and excellent big stacks.

[CalledDownLight]

[ QUOTE ]
Loose, bad short stackers
Tight, bad short stackers
Good short stackers
Excellent short stackers

[/ QUOTE ]

Its pretty hard to be tight and bad. At least the bad you guys talk about although I guess if someone is like 8/0 then they'd be pretty bad. I've never seen one of those.

[Kos13]

I think this is the best place to ask this question...

No reads on villain other than he was running ~22/17 after a couple orbits. Due to multi-tabling, I haven't even noticed him/his stack until his 3bet shove. I need like 39.2% equity to make this call, but it's hard to put him on a range since I basically know nothing about him. This looks like a fold if he has $20 and/or if I have 66, and it looks like a call with 99/88, but 77 seems to be right on the bubble.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.50/$1 Blinds - 9 Players

SB: $18.00
BB: $71.00
Hero (UTG): $102.50
UTG+1: $30.45
MP1: $125.55
MP2: $146.70
MP3: $100.50
CO: $75.75
BTN: $84.55

Preflop: Hero is dealt 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, 6 folds, <font color="red">SB raises all-in to $18.00</font>, BB folds, HERO

[Mike Kelley]

If you just stove top 17% you have like 52% equity. The question to ask is how much does their range tighten up when facing a raise?

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
Its pretty hard to be tight and bad. At least the bad you guys talk about although I guess if someone is like 8/0 then they'd be pretty bad. I've never seen one of those.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, there are plenty of bad, tight short stackers. Just like there are plenty of bad, tight full stacks.

I'm talking about players who aren't really thinking about short stacking or why they're short stacking. They're short stacking almost by default. Usually because they're talking a shot, playing above their bankroll, playing scared money.

These are the players who will limp/call a raise OOP with 55 and then check/fold any and all flops that they don't hit a set. They never take advantage of their fold equity or the gap concept. They essentially play ABC poker, except with a short stack.

There's lots of them and they're as easy to play against as full stacks who play straight up ABC. The big difference is full stack ABCers sometimes win big pots.

[MyTurn2Raise]

random thoughts

fist off, I apologize for the replies that were funny to me, but too harsh on CMAR. I, incorrectly, lumped the OP in with the effort that numerous mid stakes and high stakes sharks have to destroy shortstacking ratholers. I don't think CMAR was aware of how often the topic of shortstacking and whatnot had been coming up in other forums (BBV and MSNL namely) of late and the huge amount of ire contained within those threads. There was even a thread in SSNL dedicated to beating me specifically. I'm a bit on the defensive.

I lol'ed because the OP's info will not beat the shortstackers that BBV and MSNL are really upset about playing against.

However, that isn't the intent of CMAR's post. His post is dedicated to beating the shortstackers that frequent the games that 98% of the full ring forum play. For that purpose, CMAR's post is above average.

It will make life very difficult on the shortstacker that follows the widely available info of Ed Miller and dedicated 2p2 posts on shortstacking. There is no harm in detailing that strategy. It is pretty much a breakeven/bonus whoring strat for those that don't really know poker. For those that do know poker and can play that strat for more profit, they would be better off playing full anyway. Having them win 2ptbb/100 shouldn't bother regulars as it is actually better that you don't have to face real tough decisions against players who do know a bit of poker.

There is no need to dive further into what the really, really, really good shortstackers are doing on a very public forum with lots of lurkers, especially some who are advantage gamblers. We don't want the games to be filled with Romanian sweatshops of shortstackers. Hell, I know quite a bit about ssing, but still don't know it all as they are very, VERY secretive about everything.

Those that face the really good shortstackers know what they are doing. The studs in MSNL and HSNL are well aware. There is no reason to put it up. It's not that they cannot handle shortstackers. It's that there is an inherent flaw in trying to beat a 100BB game when some players have 20BB stacks. Anytime a little bit of deeper ss'ing gets shared, it often leads to further growth and evolution of 'pro' shortstackers. That is not a good thing.

FYI-everytime one of these threads gets started, I get a handful of PMs and AIM messages asking for info. To this point, I haven't shared with anyone. I do talk strat with one poster frequently and one other on a somewhat regular, but not often basis. Most of you know who they are.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
No reads on villain other than he was running ~22/17 after a couple orbits. Due to multi-tabling, I haven't even noticed him/his stack until his 3bet shove. I need like 39.2% equity to make this call, but it's hard to put him on a range since I basically know nothing about him. This looks like a fold if he has $20 and/or if I have 66, and it looks like a call with 99/88, but 77 seems to be right on the bubble.


[/ QUOTE ]

If his PFR was something like 6-8 I'd consider folding here because he's coming over the top of a UTG raise, but given his stats he looks pretty loose. What is your image like, particularly given your position? If you have any kind of an aggro image, or if you've folded recently to some 3bets this is a strong argument for calling.

You're calling $14.50 in a $22.50 pot (less rake). You need about 39% equity to make this break-even. You have that even against a pretty tight range and it looks to me like this guy's range might be pretty wide. You do need to accept he's going to have a better pocket pair quite frequently though.

[Kos13]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No reads on villain other than he was running ~22/17 after a couple orbits. Due to multi-tabling, I haven't even noticed him/his stack until his 3bet shove. I need like 39.2% equity to make this call, but it's hard to put him on a range since I basically know nothing about him. This looks like a fold if he has $20 and/or if I have 66, and it looks like a call with 99/88, but 77 seems to be right on the bubble.


[/ QUOTE ]

If his PFR was something like 6-8 I'd consider folding here because he's coming over the top of a UTG raise, but given his stats he looks pretty loose. What is your image like, particularly given your position? If you have any kind of an aggro image, or if you've folded recently to some 3bets this is a strong argument for calling.

You're calling $14.50 in a $22.50 pot (less rake). You need about 39% equity to make this break-even. You have that even against a pretty tight range and it looks to me like this guy's range might be pretty wide. You do need to accept he's going to have a better pocket pair quite frequently though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is what made me call...I PokerStoved it during the hand and came up with about 36% equity against a tight range, so with his 22/17 stats, I figured it was pretty close.

I hate these people, though. He had AA (which held), ratholed, then came back 10 minutes later...buying in for $20 again. So annoying.

[Cry Me A River]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think CMAR was aware of how often the topic of shortstacking and whatnot had been coming up in other forums (BBV and MSNL namely) of late and the huge amount of ire contained within those threads. There was even a thread in SSNL dedicated to beating me specifically. I'm a bit on the defensive.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying I don't get out much?

Assuming this is all true, I don't feel particularly bad if I've prevented that kind of turmoil from spilling over into this forum.

You do have a point that short stackers are the target of a lot of invective, including in this forum. It's never really bothered me 'cuz, well, everybody does it and anyway they deserve it [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Which is a completely lame excuse.

So this forum will now try to be a bit more "sensitive" to that. Short stackers are people too... More or less. The monthly chat thread isn't going to change, there's always been a certain level of trash talk tolerated there and I'm not going to start leaning on people just because someone happens to get called out for being short as opposed nitty, ABC or whatever.

However, if venting and cursing at short stackers all over the forum is so important that regs are going to up and leave in a huff when they're asked to tone it down, well, we'll just have to deal with the loss.