NL Bots on Full Tilt

[cwar]

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nation,

Don't try to blur the distinction between coaching as commonly understood, and 1 player being the true owner of a group of accounts which he hires a sweatshop of employees to play.

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One player one hand was a bad analogy but it has to be clear there is a difference between coaching (in which I partake) and the way this group operates and I think its pretty clear that the 2p2 communities stance on this issue (its unethical and bad for poker as a whole) and a moderator should not be condoning, protecting and participating in this behavior.

[nlnut]

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I'm sorry for re-stating this, but I think its relavent and I didnt see any responses to it.

Why isn't it possible that this is one person playing on many accounts at once? Here's my argument for it:

- His P5 profile stated "I then got a program called pokerstat to analyze my game and plug the leaks. And I did. I then switched over to Pokertracker and am still using that to this day." I see him having one or several large PokerTracker databases that he uses to set the data for a HUD.
- He is good with scripts that enable him to play faster. See his previous posts in other threads to confirm this.
- I argue that the reason all of the data is so similar is that he is playing on all of them. Think about this: Take 400k hands and split them up into four 100k chunks. Won't the data for each of these 100k hands be very similar to each other?
- The reason he might be slow sometimes is because he could be playing 30 tables at once and, although scripts help, he can't be quick on all of them
- The reason for some stupid moves is because he plays a load of tables at once. As someone previously mentioned, if someone 3-bets you preflop and you have junk, sometimes you're just folding without much thought into what the raise size is. Similar reasoning applies to later streets.

The "team" idea is a good excuse so that he can't get in trouble for violating the TOS. But what is more likely, that he plays on multiple IPs/computers at once or that he has a team that follows very specific algorithms for each street?

I do admit there are holes in my theory:
- How does he not sit at the same table? I think its possible that he has a script to open up tables for him too. Opening up tables on a site is hard enough, but even harder when you're playing 30 tables. There might be some central database of what tables are currently open and it makes sure, when opening up new tables, not to open up one that is already set up. This would be easy to do with a few networked computers.
- Psychologically, it seems very difficult to pull of 30 or 40 tabling or whatever. But, that doesnt mean someone can't do it.
- How does the mouse operate?

Cliff notes: Imagine someone sitting in front of four monitors with a HUD on all of them + some software he programmed that lets him quickly act on all the tables. He uses the information from the HUD plus some simple tight strategy to meak out a small profit.

[/ QUOTE ] your way off base here. All accounts are acting at the same time....since they are played by different people. this would be impossible to do if playing solo. I'm sure FTP looked at the time stamps off the HH's and determined the hands are all being played at the same time on the different accounts.

[BluffTHIS!]

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- I argue that the reason all of the data is so similar is that he is playing on all of them. Think about this: Take 400k hands and split them up into four 100k chunks. Won't the data for each of these 100k hands be very similar to each other?

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But VPIP, which should obviously be identical across the board, is statistically different between the 4 accounts listed.

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DW,

Please don't keep repeating that if you can't address my earlier point that you have to prove that VPIP is alone sufficient to make a determination here for that to matter if true. That is, you have to prove the other stats together can't trump VPIP in making this determination.

[augie_]

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kudos to nlnut for coming on to defend himself. but come on. it's so obvious when someone is tap-dancing around the facts.

[/ QUOTE ] example please?

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i was torn on whether to post in this thread at all. especially since the extent of my knowledge is what the obviously biased OP posted, and your response.

the OP has a lot of damning, cold hard data. the way you have been defending yourself is "full tilt cleared us, what else matters?"

so what i'm saying is, the overall tone of your posts indicates that something shiesty was going on that you've now gotten away with. that was just my reaction from reading all of your posts.

[ianisakson]

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kudos to nlnut for coming on to defend himself. but come on. it's so obvious when someone is tap-dancing around the facts.

[/ QUOTE ] example please?

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i'm still awaiting your reply from any of my last 5 posts in this thread

[DWarrior]

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Nicho,

Even if your explanation is true, which doesn't seem likely, nlnut and nation have given a different story. There is a lie in those stories somewhere and that's the point.

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Maybe Nation has been lied to and fell for it, but he doesnt want to lose credibility by admiting that???

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What's the lie exactly (I may have missed it among the 800 posts).

It sounds to me like nation was being honest in everything he says, he just doesn't know all the details so that's probably why the finer points of the stories differ.

[DWarrior]

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- I argue that the reason all of the data is so similar is that he is playing on all of them. Think about this: Take 400k hands and split them up into four 100k chunks. Won't the data for each of these 100k hands be very similar to each other?

[/ QUOTE ]

But VPIP, which should obviously be identical across the board, is statistically different between the 4 accounts listed.

[/ QUOTE ]


DW,

Please don't keep repeating that if you can't address my earlier point that you have to prove that VPIP is alone sufficient to make a determination here for that to matter if true. That is, you have to prove the other stats together can't trump VPIP in making this determination.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your argument is that VPIP is allowed to differ as long as other, less frequent, stats are the same?

The case for botting would not be "majority rules", it's all or nothing.

[nlnut]

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kudos to nlnut for coming on to defend himself. but come on. it's so obvious when someone is tap-dancing around the facts.

[/ QUOTE ] example please?

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm still awaiting your reply from any of my last 5 posts in this thread

[/ QUOTE ] can you please repost them please...there's so many i'm losing track. I went back and coudn't find them.

[Nichomacheo]

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[ QUOTE ]
- I argue that the reason all of the data is so similar is that he is playing on all of them. Think about this: Take 400k hands and split them up into four 100k chunks. Won't the data for each of these 100k hands be very similar to each other?

[/ QUOTE ]

But VPIP, which should obviously be identical across the board, is statistically different between the 4 accounts listed.

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How about this: At some time t0, he decided he wanted to adjust something in the strategy. He has four accounts with x1, x2, x3, anx x4 hands each. But say they're all different # of hands. The stats for each of those will be different based on how many hands he played at his strategy before t0 and the number of hands he plays with the new strategy after t0.

Example:

Set1: 110
Set2: 111100

Both have average of .67.

Change strategy to play all hands. Add 1 to each

Set1: 110 1
Set2: 111100 1

Average for 1: 0.75
Average for 2: 0.71

Same strategy, different averages, hmm. Maybe theres is a lesson here? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Triumph36]

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nation,

Don't try to blur the distinction between coaching as commonly understood, and 1 player being the true owner of a group of accounts which he hires a sweatshop of employees to play.

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yeah 'cause they wouldn't be very similar.

i think the important distinction here which will quite naturally be lost on the cruicfy him crowd is that these players are free to make different decisions at any time, they simply choose not to.

I don't think it's right or wrong - just a lousy way to spend your life for all involved.

but anyway bluffthis is the ethics professor emeritus here at 2p2, so i'll let him continue to troll under the auspices of being right.