Turning Hand Up Headup = Unethical?

[ClubChamp04]

Thank you 2+2!!! Reading the forums saved me $250 tonight. I limp with 55 someone in LP raises to $12 and I call. Flop is 543 rainbow, I elect to CC $25 in hopes to CRAI on the turn. Well the turn(9H putting two hearts on board) goes CC and the river is a 10H, I lead for $55 and he pushes so its $250 on me. This is a spot where I think a skilled player could bluff me thinking I missed the straight or whatever so I'm counting out my chips contemplating a call and ask the dealer if I can flip them. He says its fine so I flip over 55 and my opponent FLIPS HIS FLUSH OVER before I make the call. I havent't read the entire thread so I don't know what the consensus is on doing this, but this is fair game IMO and I don't feel like my play was unethical at all. I was just trying to get some extra info out of him if possible but you have to admit the possibility of someone flipping over their hand before you call adds huge value to this play.

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you 2+2!!! Reading the forums saved me $250 tonight. I limp with 55 someone in LP raises to $12 and I call. Flop is 543 rainbow, I elect to CC $25 in hopes to CRAI on the turn. Well the turn(9H putting two hearts on board) goes CC and the river is a 10H, I lead for $55 and he pushes so its $250 on me. This is a spot where I think a skilled player could bluff me thinking I missed the straight or whatever so I'm counting out my chips contemplating a call and ask the dealer if I can flip them. He says its fine so I flip over 55 and my opponent FLIPS HIS FLUSH OVER before I make the call. I havent't read the entire thread so I don't know what the consensus is on doing this, but this is fair game IMO and I don't feel like my play was unethical at all. I was just trying to get some extra info out of him if possible but you have to admit the possibility of someone flipping over their hand before you call adds huge value to this play.

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If this is true (I have real doubts) this is a reason not to allow players to turn up hands. It can create confusion about what the actual action is.

[ClubChamp04]

You have doubts??? Why would I type that out if it didn't happen?

I asked the dealer if I could turn my hand up, the opponent should have been paying attention more closely and realized what had happened or asked the dealer if I called after I flipped the hand.

Edit: It obviously created confusion but that's is my opponents fault IMO.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

This is an interesting question for me because one of the rooms I go to in the last 18 months or so made this illegal, and the hand dead. They give multiple reasons for it now, if you ask differnt floorpersons, but the real reason at the time was that at the 5/10 NL uncapped game it would cause a (censored) ridiculous slowdown constantly. It started with guys doing it on a huge hand, and then progressed until the morons were "seeing into souls" on every $50 pot. It leads to theatrics, arguments about rules, and long dramatic pauses. The room didn't say it, but I think the rule was instituted solely to keep the game moving and the rake coming.

That said, I don't see it as unethical or angleshooting in the absence of a rule. Once there is a rule, rules are rules.

[TxRedMan]

it's not unthical and it's not a douche thing to do at all.

provided you're headsup, of course.

anyone who says otherwise probably hasn't had a lot of experience playing live where this is done. it's really not that big of a deal at all.


-Tex

[Mr Rick]

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Your opinion is in the minority and you can not explain your case.

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My opinion is not what you think it is. I voted for it in the poll. I am just amused that you are so seemingly defensive that you can't keep an open mind or seem to reason logically.

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I asked the 2+2 forum for help about this play and I got it..... If anything your failure to express your reasoning and your clinging to the minority opinion shows your are guilty of what you accuse me of....

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I have learned something from this discussion. Have you?
When I play NL and get into a HU situation in which the pot is large and I think my opponent will give info if I flip my cards over, I will make sure to ascertain 1) that it is legal to flip my cards and 2) to let my opponent know that I am not folding at that moment. I also will make sure to make a quick decision (as you say you did) or at least to not add time to the decision based on the flip of my cards.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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due to acting out of turn. You shouldn't muck, bet, call OR expose your cards out of turn.

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LOL! It ***WAS*** my turn to act. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
This is quite amusing. The more I ask for a logical and reasoned argument against doing this, the more silly the responses get....

[Felix_Nietzsche]

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I am just amused that you are so seemingly defensive that you can't keep an open mind or seem to reason logically.

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You seem to take a perverse delight playing the Devil's advocate. If I want to engage in a silly argument, I will go to the 2+2 political forum.

I have asked over-and-over again for someone to give a reasoned argument against this practice. All I have seen are emotional arguments without substance and without supporting evidence. A person's feelings against something is not anargument. So in absense of a reasoned responsed, I'm going with my expert witness (aka Doyle) over random posters who lack the ability or reason to express their postions... I will make this simple for you in a mathematical formula:
Poll Results + Doyle > Random 2+2 Posters

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I have learned something from this discussion. Have you?

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Yes, there are a lot of nitwits in card rooms that will try to angleshoot claiming my hand is dead. I will ask first if this is kosher to do next time... And then I will turn my hand over to gain this information.... It is my hand and if I wish to flip it over.....I will....assuming the rules apply.

[egocidal]

mention doyle one more time.

pah pah pah please.

jesus.

also:

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anyone who says otherwise probably hasn't had a lot of experience playing live where this is done.

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no.

[MayorHerb]

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1. The poll results of B&M players overwhelmingly supported my play.
2. The poll results of B&M players overwhelmingly supported my play.
3. The poll results of B&M players overwhelmingly supported my play.
4. I learned this from Doyle. One Doyle is worth a thousand random posters.
5. No one on this forum can give me a coherant reason why this is bad.
I respond to well thought out arguments and reasons but you can not provide any... If anything you are clinging to the minority opinion and you can NOT give *ONE* coherent reason to support your opinion....

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1. A majority of people polled supported Gore in 2000 on election Day
2. A majority of people polled believe Saddam Hussein had WMD
3. A majority of people polled believe Saddam Hussein was involved in 9/11
4. Perhaps Doyle, a degenerate gambler (by society's standards, people crossed the street to avoid him and he worked from the same bankroll going from backroom game to backroom game, so don't necessarily call all his tactics honorable - even though he himself is advocating what some dare to call "angle-shooting".
5. Get over yourself. If you can get away with it (I'm not saying it's against the rules or should or shouldn't be - I couldn't care less), more power to you. If the room tries to keep things more "fair" for less experienced players, then quit whining and find another way to win, maybe by using more skill. Maybe you'll get good enough so you won't NEED to use it as a crutch for your poor reading skills.

"People today who play in all the big fancy (legal) card rooms don't understand what it was like back in those days to be a poker player with all the problems we had." /Doyle Brunson/

"Everybody today knows what I learned back then because it's in all the poker books. But nobody knew <u>the right way to play</u> back in those days." /Doyle Brunson/

"Angle-Shooting" definition

Angle-Shooting
Using unfair tactics.

Usage: A poker player who uses various underhanded, unfair methods to take advantage of inexperienced opponents. The difference between an angle shooter and a cheat is only a matter of degree. What a cheat or thief does is patently against the rules; what an angle shooter does may be marginally legal, but it's neither ethical nor gentlemanly. Nor is it in the spirit of the game. Unfortunately, poker is not a gentleman's game. In addition to learning how to protect yourself against cheating players, you must learn to watch out for the angle shooters. See "Angle".