Ahmadinejad Ground Zero request

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
...The guy's a jerk, no question about it. But he's the jerk who leads a big country. For me, I have a bigger problem with the leader of our country sending American soldiers and marines into a country refusing to consider all the advice it received on what would happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a bigger problem with the leader of a country that executes women for adultery by stoning (see link below in my post); executes people for being homosexual ( Iran: Two More Executions for Homosexual Conduct );
sentences people to death in secret trials ( Iran: End Executions After Unfair Trials ); displays a total lack of religous tolerance ( Iran: Scores Arrested in Anti-Baha’i Campaign ); provides an environment where sex slavery flourishes ( Sex Slavery New Face of Oppression of Women in Iran ); ....

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
Those "beliefs," as pointed out in another post in this thread, may not be truthfully held. But even if they are, if there are "great differences" between out two countries' positions, that gulf can be diminished in either of two ways: by him moving a bit towards us, or by us moving a bit towards him. Simply insulting and threatening each other does not bode well for the future.

I'm not looking for the good in him. I'm looking for the practical. Sometimes, as all poker players know, money talks and bullsh*t walks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I happen to believe that Ahmadinejad believes what he states publicly. For the sake of argument, though, let's say he doesn't believe much of it and it is instead designed to appeal to the masses.

What would that say about the masses?

So: either Ahmadinejad mostly means what he says OR the masses must generally be more sympathetic to and eager for radical ideology and policy than we would like to suppose. Or both.

[andyfox]

His "leadership" is appalling, I agree. So is that of China. And Saudi Arabia. And Russia. And . . .. The question is what should our policy then be. So far, it looks to me like it's been name-calling and threats. How do you think we are we doing with that policy?

[blufish]

[ QUOTE ]
His "leadership" is appalling, I agree. So is that of China. And Saudi Arabia. And Russia. And . . .. The question is what should our policy then be. So far, it looks to me like it's been name-calling and threats. How do you think we are we doing with that policy?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about supporting an assassination of him and his inner circle by providing intel and weapons to opposition groups in iran??

i'd vote for that one... methinks you probably don't agree, tho.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
However, from a military perspective, there is simply no weapon more powerful than a nuclear bomb for the projection of power. Iran has delivery systems in place to project its power on all the regions the United States and Israel are worried about. US cities are not at risk, but all of the Middle East, including Israel, is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, I tend to ignore that Israel is a strategic and fiscal investment and Iran's real threat is to the region not the US, your absolutely right - that is the real risk. Interesting... in the 40's Israel was strategically important because of the proximity to the USSR, now its because of the proximity to other Middle East countries, its too great a risk to loose Israel.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His "leadership" is appalling, I agree. So is that of China. And Saudi Arabia. And Russia. And . . .. The question is what should our policy then be. So far, it looks to me like it's been name-calling and threats. How do you think we are we doing with that policy?

[/ QUOTE ]

how about supporting an assassination of him and his inner circle by providing intel and weapons to opposition groups in iran??

i'd vote for that one... methinks you probably don't agree, tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

blue - he is not really in control, he is the mouthpiece for the Imans. Their government is different than hours, using our analogy he represents Congress, he is their Press Secretary. The former leader of Iran battled with Congress and expressed his own opinions, thats why he was removed for being too western.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
What would that say about the masses?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume they are ignorant, just like the masses of Americans are ignorant. In both situations our governments are pandering to remain in control. At the same time I am not so sure that the masses in Iran really agree with the direction of the Imans, they might be more worldly than you and I assume. My friend Nedda spent 6 months in Iran filming a documentary about the commonality between Americans and Iranians, although i never saw it I was told its eye opening. Nedda has been living in the states since she was 5 or so and was raised in a Catholic Persian household. She was under surveillance while in Iran, she almost landed in jail for her filming yet she still believes the Iranian people are misunderstood. Personally I am not sure I believe her POV, but its compelling evidence to suggest that the masses aren't as ignorant as we assume so i try to approach it with an open mind.

[*TT*]

I spent 20 minutes trying to confirm this post and I couldn't. I think TT was the victim of some bad information.

[*TT*]

update - Ahmadinejad will give a speech at Columbia University

[John Kilduff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I happen to believe that Ahmadinejad believes what he states publicly. For the sake of argument, though, let's say he doesn't believe much of it and it is instead designed to appeal to the masses.

What would that say about the masses?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume they are ignorant, just like the masses of Americans are ignorant. In both situations our governments are pandering to remain in control. At the same time I am not so sure that the masses in Iran really agree with the direction of the Imans, they might be more worldly than you and I assume. My friend Nedda spent 6 months in Iran filming a documentary about the commonality between Americans and Iranians, although i never saw it I was told its eye opening. Nedda has been living in the states since she was 5 or so and was raised in a Catholic Persian household. She was under surveillance while in Iran, she almost landed in jail for her filming yet she still believes the Iranian people are misunderstood. Personally I am not sure I believe her POV, but its compelling evidence to suggest that the masses aren't as ignorant as we assume so i try to approach it with an open mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good slice of the Iranian population is young, educated, and dislikes the tyranny of the mullahs. When they protest, though, they generally get beaten down (literally) and/or arrested.

Politicians do tend to pander in order to remain in power. That is probably a widespread trait and practice which cuts across geographic and cultural boundaries.

My take is that *if* Ahmadinejad is primarily pandering, he is pandering to the fundamentalist or radical element. If he thinks they are worth pandering to politically, they must clearly represent a very substantial bloc. Yet it is also true that there exists a substantial bloc of Iranians who hold much more progressive views.

You might find it interesting to do a Google search on Ahmadinejad + "12th imam" or Ahmadinejad + "Mahdi" and read a few of the articles. You might find it eye-opening as to what some people on the other side of the world and in different cultures really believe and profess to believe. Ahmadfinejad seems clearly to me to be one of those people. But I won't ruin the fun; do the search yourself and read a little bit and I guarantee you will be quite surprised at least.

Ignorance is not limited to any one country or culture, though I wasn't hinting at ignorance with my question. It is common to think that people of other views are ignorant. Interestingly, they often think the same about people of, say, our views. Just because someone believes in fundamental religion does not mean that they must be generally ignorant.

There exist cultures and ideologies which genuinely look down on ours. They usually don't apologize for it, though - because they consider their views to be simply correct. Western liberalism tends to feel it must be equally accepting or accomodating of all others' belief systems. That tolerance is often not reciprocated, though. Therein lies one of the rubs.

There will be much drama and unfolding in the Middle East over the coming years and decades. I think the West will learn much that it hasn't been generally aware of. The learning process has already started; let's hope it will not be too painful and traumatic (though my guess is that it will be so in many ways).

Thanks for reading and for your responses.