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#61
09-20-2007, 03:38 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
[ QUOTE ]
Foal said I believe he was a real and highly influential person (not a christian). It sounded like he was saying Christ was not a Christian and implying Christians are bad...That's what I'm saying about cryptic comments...they may or may not accurately reflect what you're saying... [/ QUOTE ] not sure why i'm bothering to make this post, but his remark isn't cryptic at all if you read the sentences he quotes and use them to figure out what he must be saying. the problem is you being careless, again. 
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#62
09-20-2007, 03:40 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
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I am trying to be my own original self...not a copy of anyone else's idea of what "critical thinking" should be...that is worth something in any debate [/ QUOTE ] If being your own original self involves cherry-picking a line or two from a Wikipedia article and avoiding logic and reason, then no, that is not worth anything in a debate. [ QUOTE ] See wikipedia on critical thinking and bias if you want first rate thought... [/ QUOTE ] OK, I read this part. People are biased. I will openly admit that I am probably biased and could be wrong on anything and everything. What is your point? I think you should read the entire article.
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#65
09-20-2007, 05:34 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No non-christian scholars believe that 'jesus of the bible' existed ... Or Else They Would Be Christians. The possible 'poor slob jesus', hut builder, that may have existed never influenced anyone. [/ QUOTE ] I believe he was a real and highly influential person (not a christian). [/ QUOTE ] Count me in. That's 2. (I am not Christian.) [/ QUOTE ] So you believe both that there was a real person named Jesus AND that this very same real person performed all of those miracles and said all of those things? Because if you are ignoring or rejecting the miracles, you should probably be ignoring or rejecting all the wonderful things he said and his message...since they come from the same source. Tacitus and all give some support to the idea that some dude named Jesus lived and was possibly crucified. But nothing Tacitus or any other Roman says has anything to do with whether this guy ever said a meaningful thing in his life. Its pretty inconsistent of you to take the Bible's word for the message and sayings of Jesus and not take its word for the miracles. Sklansky would probably reject my point, though.
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#66
09-20-2007, 05:42 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
You have made allot of assumptions about my position.
Firstly, there is allot of room for ambiguity in the 'Quote''Quote''Quote'. Particularly the first part of it. It states that anyone that believes the 'Jesus of the bible' existed must be Christian. That was the part I took issue with. (Also it is interesting that you quoted MY reply and not Foal's/Fpir's or the fourth person that also took the same line. Is this a concious decision, or just chance?). There was no mention of miracles, or teachings in the post I was responding to. I happen to believe that the Jesus mentioned in the bible existed. I do not believe that he is the son of god, nor that he turned water to wine. I also do not believe that these two statements have to be mutually exclusive.
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#67
09-20-2007, 05:46 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
Yes, I was saying that I am not a Christian.. Not that Christ was not a Christian. Thanks for clearing that up, hitch and Sepus.
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] No non-christian scholars believe that 'jesus of the bible' existed ... Or Else They Would Be Christians. The possible 'poor slob jesus', hut builder, that may have existed never influenced anyone. [/ QUOTE ] I believe he was a real and highly influential person (not a christian). [/ QUOTE ] Count me in. That's 2. (I am not Christian.) [/ QUOTE ] So you believe both that there was a real person named Jesus AND that this very same real person performed all of those miracles and said all of those things? [/ QUOTE ] Where did I say "this very same real person performed all of those miracles and said all of those things?"? [ QUOTE ] Because if you are ignoring or rejecting the miracles, you should probably be ignoring or rejecting all the wonderful things he said and his message...since they come from the same source. [/ QUOTE ] I have no idea what Jesus said and don't know what his message was. [ QUOTE ] Tacitus and all give some support to the idea that some dude named Jesus lived and was possibly crucified. But nothing Tacitus or any other Roman says has anything to do with whether this guy ever said a meaningful thing in his life. [/ QUOTE ] I guess there's a .001% chance that he was selected completely randomly to be followed and worshiped as a mesiah. The much more plausible explanation is that he was a spiritual leader who drew a large following, was seen as dangerous for this and executed and then in martyrdom gained an exaggerated and mythological status.
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#69
09-20-2007, 06:17 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
[ QUOTE ]
Lucky me said that only Christians believe Jesus existed. [/ QUOTE ] Are there two luckyme's on here. My point was if you believe the tales about the biblical jesus, the miracles, that he ascended to his god/father in heaven, etc, then you are a christian. At least, it would a tough mindset to hold that "jesus did x, y, z ( miracles), died, ascended to his god/father in heaven" AND that he isn't the son of god etc. It's easy to believe there was a guy called jesus, or Bill Hickok, or Henry VIII, or Robinson Crusoe ( well, Dafoe changed his name) but he didn't do the things he's credited with by the story writers. Why not. It's important to keep those concepts separate when discussing 'historical jesus' claims. We could find a wallet from 23AD with J.C's drivers license and it would mean there was a historical jesus and non-christians would agree. That doesn't mean they go along with the water-fish sonofgod stories luckyme
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#70
09-20-2007, 06:33 PM
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Re: An Amazing Life
I agree with your post here, however earlier you wrote -"No non-christian scholars believe that 'jesus of the bible' existed ... Or Else They Would Be Christians.
The possible 'poor slob jesus', hut builder, that may have existed never influenced anyone." Which seems to suggest you do not believe Foal's suggested position, here, -"The much more plausible explanation is that he was a spiritual leader who drew a large following, was seen as dangerous for this and executed and then in martyrdom gained an exaggerated and mythological status." Is a possible one.
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