Man Arrested for Refusing to Show Drivers License

[Phil153]

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I mean, isn't the whole point of the 4th amendment to protect people from exactly this circumstance?

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From federal and state authorities but this is capitalizm and companies can do it if they want LOL n00b

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The policeman is a federal or state authority.

It's not a policeman's job to enforce store policy. If you assume a voluntary contract for bag search upon exit of the store (which is a huge stretch IMO), then should breach of that contract allow for criminal arrest where no actual laws have been violated?

It's a different thing if the employee claims he saw shoplifted items - that's a claim of a crime. But I don't see how failure to comply with a civil contract - with undefined terms - allows for automatic arrest.

[Case Closed]

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Me: “I’m required by law to state that my name is Michael Righi, but I do not have to provide you with my driver’s license since I am not operating a vehicle.”
Officer Arroyo: “Give me your driver’s license or I will place you under arrest.”
Me: “My name is Michael Righi. I am not willing to provide you with my driver’s license.”
Officer Arroyo: “Turn around and up against the wall.”

this guy is a [censored] idiot. that is all

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Are you saying that he should have just complied with the cop's demands even though they were without any reason?

[KotOD]

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Me: “I’m required by law to state that my name is Michael Righi, but I do not have to provide you with my driver’s license since I am not operating a vehicle.”
Officer Arroyo: “Give me your driver’s license or I will place you under arrest.”
Me: “My name is Michael Righi. I am not willing to provide you with my driver’s license.”
Officer Arroyo: “Turn around and up against the wall.”

this guy is a [censored] idiot. that is all

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Because he knows and asserts his rights?

The cop should lose his job, but instead the city will settle with this guy and use taxpayer's money to cover up yet another bad cop's miscues.

[mbillie1]

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Are you saying that he should have just complied with the cop's demands even though they were without any reason?

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That, sadly, is what a lot of people are saying. What people don't get is that cops are taught to get you to do certain things (like consent to searches, waive your right to an attorney during any and all questioning, etc) without explicitly telling you that they're doing so--and this is fine; if you're too ignorant of your own rights to exercise them then to some degree you deserve what you get. But when you're aware of your rights and assert them there is no way that you "deserve" to be unlawfully arrested, and I think it's pretty head-up-ass to think this guy's a d-bag or a tool for simply exercising a right given to him by law.

[ematz]

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Again... I believe when the court is saying 'identify oneself' they mean hand over ID. I'm thinking that asking for identification and asking to identify oneself are the same thing in this ruling. I'm looking into it more, so if I'm wrong I'll get back to you. If you want to find something that says during a Terry Stop, or otherwise, identifying yourself to a cop just means saying 'Hi, I'm John Smith' please let me know.

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What if you don't have your ID? You're not legally required to have it if you're not driving/flying.

[pergesu]

Okay I have some questions about this. Let's say a cop asks me to show him my ID for some reason. I don't know if I'm legally required to, so I ask him. Of course he's going to tell me yes. I find out later from my attorney that I didn't have to show him my ID. I only gave it to him because he told me I was required by law to do so.

What kind of legal trouble could the cop be in? How does it change based on whether he knowingly lied to me vs genuinely believing I was required to show ID?

Basically I know that you shouldn't say much to cops because it all gets used against you. otoh, I don't want to get in even more trouble for not complying with something that I had to. This requires (a) knowing all the laws (b) having an attorney that you can call whenever or (c) relying on the cop's word. I would assume as a citizen that I should be able to ask him and be instructed on what I'm legally required to do (not legal advice)

[rjoefish]

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Again... I believe when the court is saying 'identify oneself' they mean hand over ID. I'm thinking that asking for identification and asking to identify oneself are the same thing in this ruling. I'm looking into it more, so if I'm wrong I'll get back to you. If you want to find something that says during a Terry Stop, or otherwise, identifying yourself to a cop just means saying 'Hi, I'm John Smith' please let me know.

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What if you don't have your ID? You're not legally required to have it if you're not driving/flying.

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I've had this happen, when driving, and I was able to just give my name and address, and maybe my social, don't remember if they asked for that, without incident. I've never been asked to show ID to a cop while not driving, so I can't speak as to what would happen, but I think if you gave them the information that is required by the situation, and law, such as name, address and birthdate they could look up whatever they were going to with that information.

If you're reasonable about it, and giving what information is required, and they can verify it, or do whatever they were going to do, you're probably okay. I'd like to think a cop wouldn't be able to arrest you for not showing ID if you actually don't have it on you. If they're even allowed to arrest you for not showing ID that is, which while I thought that was the case it may not be. I'm done looking stuff up as its just a lot of legal stuff that I can't claim to understand fully.

[pergesu]

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I mean, isn't the whole point of the 4th amendment to protect people from exactly this circumstance?

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From federal and state authorities but this is capitalizm and companies can do it if they want LOL n00b

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The policeman is a federal or state authority.

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I know, and I'm on this dude's side. I thought that the particular sequence that I quoted had to do with how the employees acted. They effectively detained him by not allowing the car to go anywhere. He called the cops to complain about what I assume constitutes harassment. Sick laughter ensues.

Anyway I'm not really sure what the stores should do. I hate being asked too. I mean, I gave them my credit card, which is the same card I've been using for years. They have my purchase history and know I've spent over $10k there. Can't I get a little bit of respect?

Whatever. One time I bought a router from best buy, swapped in my old one, and returned it. I showed them.

[youtalkfunny]

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After reading the posts here I was prepared to hate this guy when I read the article, but after reading it, good for him.

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My thoughts exactly. My only beef was that he dialed 911 to summon the police. 911 is for EMERGENCIES. If "Joe" had seriously injured him, or made him fear for his safety, then 911 would be appropriate.

[MicroBob]

mostly agree with mbillie here.

Haven't read the whole thread.
For those of you thinking he should just do what he's told because it's easy to comply:
What if this bag-searching and ID request happened more often and in more places?

Every time I leave pretty much any store they stop and ask to search my bag and look at my ID? Every time I leave a restaurant they stop me to look at my ID and ask to do a quick check of my person to make sure I haven't stored any rolls.
It'll only take a few seconds. Everybody else is doing it. Why can't you do what we politely ask you to do like everyone else?

In other words, why on earth do Circuit City and Best Buy magically get the right to stop you and search your bags when it's not the right elsewhere and they don't do the same at most other places?

Yeah, it's pretty easy to comply. But if walking down the street minding my own business I had every officer every 40 seconds asking to see my driver's license I'm pretty sure that eventually I would get sick of it and refuse.

There's no obligation to have to show it even once.

And there's nothing in the laws that say that you don't have to consent to be searched unless you happen to be shopping at Circuit City.