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#61
08-31-2007, 11:31 AM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
This whole thread is a perfect example of the misinformed antiwar people here at 2+2 who spout and cry as if we lived in some sci fi world where there was no violence. [/ QUOTE ] Violence is justified because: [x] that's the way it is. "Mommy, mommy, the teacher punched me in the face when he came drunk to school" "Shut up you little cry-baby. Do you live in some sci fi world where there is no violence!?" 
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#62
08-31-2007, 11:32 AM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions.
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#63
08-31-2007, 03:21 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions. [/ QUOTE ] If you are in fact familiar with his experiments and you still come to that conclusion, I'm not really sure what to say. Prof. Milgram basically gave us documented evidence of the sad truth, people are sheep. Not only are most people wired/conditioned like that, but worse yet, many seemed to enjoy it. Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so. Cody
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#64
08-31-2007, 04:10 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This whole thread is a perfect example of the misinformed antiwar people here at 2+2 who spout and cry as if we lived in some sci fi world where there was no violence. [/ QUOTE ] Violence is justified because: [x] that's the way it is. "Mommy, mommy, the teacher punched me in the face when he came drunk to school" "Shut up you little cry-baby. Do you live in some sci fi world where there is no violence!?" [/ QUOTE ] In your fantasy world maybe in my world the teacher get's fired and goes to jail
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#65
08-31-2007, 04:21 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions. [/ QUOTE ] If you are in fact familiar with his experiments and you still come to that conclusion, I'm not really sure what to say. Prof. Milgram basically gave us documented evidence of the sad truth, people are sheep. Not only are most people wired/conditioned like that, but worse yet, many seemed to enjoy it. Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so. Cody [/ QUOTE ] Milgram didn't do anything to show if this tendency is hardwired or a result of conditioning. You even implicitly acknowleged this by using the "wired/conditioned" combo. It's one of those two; which one it actually is makes a huge difference. DUCY?
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#66
08-31-2007, 04:30 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions. [/ QUOTE ] If you are in fact familiar with his experiments and you still come to that conclusion, I'm not really sure what to say. Prof. Milgram basically gave us documented evidence of the sad truth, people are sheep. Not only are most people wired/conditioned like that, but worse yet, many seemed to enjoy it. Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so. Cody [/ QUOTE ] Milgram didn't do anything to show if this tendency is hardwired or a result of conditioning. You even implicitly acknowleged this by using the "wired/conditioned" combo. It's one of those two; which one it actually is makes a huge difference. DUCY? [/ QUOTE ] Cody: It's one of these two things PVN: It's one of these two things, DUCY? Cody: Uhh that's what I just said. So I have no idea why you're repeating me, but in reference to the fact that Milgram observed current situations and didn't get into conditioning, yes that was his intent. Other experiments were done later trying to expand his work. It seems to me, given most of recoreded history, that people are bastards, and given the fact that the large-scale spread of information is a fairly recent occurrence, I'm going to go with a guess of 80% hard-wired 20% conditioned. Your guess? Cody
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#67
08-31-2007, 04:37 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions. [/ QUOTE ] If you are in fact familiar with his experiments and you still come to that conclusion, I'm not really sure what to say. Prof. Milgram basically gave us documented evidence of the sad truth, people are sheep. Not only are most people wired/conditioned like that, but worse yet, many seemed to enjoy it. Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so. Cody [/ QUOTE ] Milgram didn't do anything to show if this tendency is hardwired or a result of conditioning. You even implicitly acknowleged this by using the "wired/conditioned" combo. It's one of those two; which one it actually is makes a huge difference. DUCY? [/ QUOTE ] Cody: It's one of these two things PVN: It's one of these two things, DUCY? Cody: Uhh that's what I just said. So I have no idea why you're repeating me, but in reference to the fact that Milgram observed current situations and didn't get into conditioning, yes that was his intent. Other experiments were done later trying to expand his work. It seems to me, given most of recoreded history, that people are bastards, and given the fact that the large-scale spread of information is a fairly recent occurrence, I'm going to go with a guess of 80% hard-wired 20% conditioned. Your guess? Cody [/ QUOTE ] If its conditioning that makes them bastards, then their bastardliness is not a justification for propping up the conditions that make them bastards.
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#68
08-31-2007, 04:39 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions. [/ QUOTE ] If you are in fact familiar with his experiments and you still come to that conclusion, I'm not really sure what to say. Prof. Milgram basically gave us documented evidence of the sad truth, people are sheep. Not only are most people wired/conditioned like that, but worse yet, many seemed to enjoy it. Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so. Cody [/ QUOTE ] Milgram didn't do anything to show if this tendency is hardwired or a result of conditioning. You even implicitly acknowleged this by using the "wired/conditioned" combo. It's one of those two; which one it actually is makes a huge difference. DUCY? [/ QUOTE ] Cody: It's one of these two things PVN: It's one of these two things, DUCY? Cody: Uhh that's what I just said. So I have no idea why you're repeating me, but in reference to the fact that Milgram observed current situations and didn't get into conditioning, yes that was his intent. Other experiments were done later trying to expand his work. It seems to me, given most of recoreded history, that people are bastards, and given the fact that the large-scale spread of information is a fairly recent occurrence, I'm going to go with a guess of 80% hard-wired 20% conditioned. Your guess? Cody [/ QUOTE ] If its conditioning that makes them bastards, then their bastardliness is not a justification for propping up the conditions that make them bastards. [/ QUOTE ] Agree, but that's not what I asked. What's your thought on how much is nature/nurture. Cody
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#69
08-31-2007, 05:07 PM
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Re: Why my 12 months in Iraq were NOT wasted.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] So to reiterate: when a human being drops a bomb from high above the clouds on a city where other humans live (and he himself lives on the other side of the world), he it not to blaim for the murder, even if he voluntarily agreed beforehand to do such a thing if it was asked of him? [/ QUOTE ] Niels, familiar with the Milgram Experiments Cody [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Are you saying that we should destroy the system that creates such situations? I agree. The step towards that is to take responsibility for our own actions. [/ QUOTE ] If you are in fact familiar with his experiments and you still come to that conclusion, I'm not really sure what to say. Prof. Milgram basically gave us documented evidence of the sad truth, people are sheep. Not only are most people wired/conditioned like that, but worse yet, many seemed to enjoy it. Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so. Cody [/ QUOTE ] Milgram didn't do anything to show if this tendency is hardwired or a result of conditioning. You even implicitly acknowleged this by using the "wired/conditioned" combo. It's one of those two; which one it actually is makes a huge difference. DUCY? [/ QUOTE ] Cody: It's one of these two things PVN: It's one of these two things, DUCY? Cody: Uhh that's what I just said. So I have no idea why you're repeating me, but in reference to the fact that Milgram observed current situations and didn't get into conditioning, yes that was his intent. Other experiments were done later trying to expand his work. It seems to me, given most of recoreded history, that people are bastards, and given the fact that the large-scale spread of information is a fairly recent occurrence, I'm going to go with a guess of 80% hard-wired 20% conditioned. Your guess? Cody [/ QUOTE ] If its conditioning that makes them bastards, then their bastardliness is not a justification for propping up the conditions that make them bastards. [/ QUOTE ] Agree, but that's not what I asked. What's your thought on how much is nature/nurture. Cody [/ QUOTE ] I don't understand your position. If people are sheep based on this study and you agree this may be due to conditioning (heavily influenced by their statist upbringing), then why are you also saying that "Taking down "the state", in this case, won't do anything. The proof is there, people are a dangerous animal and taking away the only referee we have now isn't going to accomplish anything, no matter how much you wish it were so." If the state is part of the conditioning that makes people sheep, then it isn't acting as the referee it is acting as the coach.
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