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#61
06-21-2007, 10:41 PM
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Re: Is there truly such a thing as a selfless act?
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[ QUOTE ] It's a dumb argument because it basically eliminates the usefulness of the words selfless and selfish. [/ QUOTE ] Please explain why eliminating the usefulness of an already unuseful word is dumb. [/ QUOTE ] Because it isn't a useless word. It means something when you say that someone is selfless. People use the word all the time. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's vacuously true that we do everything to "please ourselves" in some sense, but that doesn't really give you much explanatory power. [/ QUOTE ] What's this "vacuously true" business? It's true or it isn't. And there isn't an insignificant difference between recognizing a fundamental self-interest in peoples' actions and thinking that there's self-interest and then this other thing called "selflessness." [/ QUOTE ] I mean that it doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't really explain anything. So instead of people being selfless, they just enjoy helping other people more than accumulating personal wealth/prestige/etc. I don't understand how that explains anything. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] When I say someone is selfless I don't mean that he's a masochist. I mean that he would prefer to sacrifice something he has for the wellbeing of others. [/ QUOTE ] Because it makes him feel good. [/ QUOTE ] And so this leads to what conclusion? Isn't that the definition of preference? It's something you choose because you like it better than the alternative. I just don't understand why it's an interesting question at all. 
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#62
06-21-2007, 10:58 PM
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Re: Is there truly such a thing as a selfless act?
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Is there truly such a thing as a selfless act? [/ QUOTE ] Yes. Selfish genes create sometimes-altruistic people, who sometimes commit altruistic selfless acts. This is very standard evolutionary theory. [/ QUOTE ] So if he had worded his sentence as "Is there such a thing as a truly selfless act" as opposed to "Is there truly such a thing as a selfless act" would your answer have been the same? [/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"><u>Yes! Selfish genes create sometimes-altruistic people, who sometimes commit altruistic selfless acts! This is very standard evolutionary theory!</u> </font> [/ QUOTE ] Nah.
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#63
06-22-2007, 12:27 PM
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Re: Is there truly such a thing as a selfless act?
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Right. And what I'm saying is that showing that one gains pleasure/satisfaction/utility from an act does not show that the motivation for the act is to gain pleasure/satisfaction/utility. The psychological egoist must show not only that all acts result in a gain in pleasure/satisfaction/utility (a claim which I think is false, anyway), but then must also show that the motivation for every act is to gain in pleasure/satisfaction/utility. These are two distinct steps in the argument, each of which requires justification. So what do you think the justification is for step 2? [/ QUOTE ] As Chezlaw said, I don't see why step one is necessary for the purpose of this argument--I might take an action because of the expectation of pleasure only to be disappointed, and this happens all the time. I don't know how I can show that step two is true. It seems like you either believe it be so or you don't. I certainly don't think you can disprove it--Nozick's thought experiment is pretty weak, IMO. [ QUOTE ] And so this leads to what conclusion? Isn't that the definition of preference? It's something you choose because you like it better than the alternative. I just don't understand why it's an interesting question at all. [/ QUOTE ] Okay, duly noted. I get what you're saying, but I personally think it's an interesting question.
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