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#63
05-20-2007, 07:57 PM
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Re: 200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)
AS,
if you really want to make a 'serious post' then how about posting your actual hand so we can discuss the merits of your play? or if your image is too cool or too greatly improved by this thread, i understand. 
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#65
05-20-2007, 08:19 PM
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Re: 200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)
[ QUOTE ]
Once you check/call turn, I can profitably shove any two cards on the river vs your range. There is no hand in your range that can call a river shove. This is basically assuming you are a good player and play a winning style. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Calling my river shove with KK is not a winning play in my opinion, and in your shoes, I never would. [/ QUOTE ] How can both these statements be true? I'm no good at logic, but I don't think they can be. Now, if you qualify that by saying you are doing this with the goods 80% of the time, and 20% of the time, when you have nothing (and giving up the other 80% of the time you have nothing), then that's different. If you further qualify it by saying that you range for calling the flop and betting the turn is very narrow, that makes it different two. But that's not what "any two cards" means.
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#66
05-20-2007, 08:30 PM
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Re: 200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Once you check/call turn, I can profitably shove any two cards on the river vs your range. There is no hand in your range that can call a river shove. This is basically assuming you are a good player and play a winning style. [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Calling my river shove with KK is not a winning play in my opinion, and in your shoes, I never would. [/ QUOTE ] How can both these statements be true? I'm no good at logic, but I don't think they can be. Now, if you qualify that by saying you are doing this with the goods 80% of the time, and 20% of the time, when you have nothing (and giving up the other 80% of the time you have nothing), then that's different. If you further qualify it by saying that you range for calling the flop and betting the turn is very narrow, that makes it different two. But that's not what "any two cards" means. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure why it doesn't make sense. Here is what I was attempting to say: Hero's range for 3betting, cbetting, check-calling the turn, and checking the river is pretty narrow. From my perspective, I can look at this range and realize that in this situation, hero doesn't have a hand that should be calling a river shove vs the range associated with my line. I was also assuming (throughout that thought process) that hero perceives my range (for taking the line I did) to be tighter than it really is. From my perspective: I think my shove is profitable with air vs his range. From his perspective: I think folding KK to a river shove is the correct decision against a logical range for him to be putting me on. If I am in his shoes, I am putting someone who raised preflop, called a cbet, bet the turn, and shoved the river on a pretty defined range that does not include a lot of bluffs.
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#67
05-20-2007, 08:32 PM
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Re: 200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)
[ QUOTE ]
AS, if you really want to make a 'serious post' then how about posting your actual hand so we can discuss the merits of your play? or if your image is too cool or too greatly improved by this thread, i understand. [/ QUOTE ] I posted my thoughts about his line and my analysis of the situation/hand from his perspective. I was planning on posting the hand from my POV after the discussion about the hand in this thread was done. Funny how judgmental people can be. I'm not sure where I pissed ppl off, but please, let's continue taking shots at me.
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#69
05-20-2007, 08:56 PM
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Re: 200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)
Interesting thread, I didn't find AS annoying and I don't think he should reveal his hand.
But I do think his logic is faulty when he says that villain can profitably push everything and that hero should fold everything in his range. Obviously KK only beats a bluff but if villain follows up on his floats with a high frequency, then calling with KK is correct. Jc hits two draws, it's the biggest scarecard to KK after an Ace. Is the dynamic on the river totally different on a blank? Or do you still think that villain can profitably push his entire range.
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#70
05-20-2007, 09:01 PM
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Re: 200NL: I hate myself (Hand against ASPoker8)
[ QUOTE ]
Interesting thread, I didn't find AS annoying and I don't think he should reveal his hand. But I do think his logic is faulty when he says that villain can profitably push everything and that hero should fold everything in his range. Obviously KK only beats a bluff but if villain follows up on his floats with a high frequency, then calling with KK is correct. Jc hits two draws, it's the biggest scarecard to KK after an Ace. Is the dynamic on the river totally different on a blank? Or do you still think that villain can profitably push his entire range. [/ QUOTE ] Under those assumptions, yes, my logic is really bad. However, when constructing my argument, I assumed that hero viewed villain as a pretty good 200NL regular TAG who isn't going to be floating and then 2barrel bluffing resulting in getting 200BBs in with air. I think that given the lack of history and the dynamic between Timber and I, his view of me would be a pretty basic 200NL TAG. My stats are usually around 19/17 and it would make sense for his view of my range to be pretty heavily weighted towards a set or better.
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