Math Talent, Asperger's Syndrome,"Social Skills"

[George Rice]

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Nice shirt [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Btw, you should watch the movie "A Beautiful Mind", because their portrait of Nash shows a guy who had difficulties following the accepted ritual of talking to women. It's quite funny.

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Who's that funny lookin' guy with the hair?

[George Rice]

I think that most who go along with the sort of social customs you cite do so to be accepted. No one likes being an outcast (you didn't with your cuffs, and I suspect there was more to that than it just being something some irrelevant person decided--you were the butt of someone's joke, you were humiliated).

Some people like you and I and others here could care less for the most part (especially at our advancing age). Although there are certainly benefits in certain situations (opposite sex is one you mentioned, getting a job, being a salesmen, etc). But there are others who follow the customs because it's the smart thing to do. They get further in life because of it, and avoid unnecessary confrontations that could develop with some people. I've learned from these type of people as I got older and "dumber".

[dragon14]

I agree completely with you George. Around adolescence being smarter than your peers is no longer enough to win an argument. Others now have the ability to devastate you with personal attacks that crush your feelings.

Unfortunately, I can't see any means of avoiding trouble rather than attempting to fit in with the accepted means of dress until high school at which point individuality is not as scorned.

[Shaibel]

David Sklansky wrote:

" ... It has to do with why some science minded people and those who have a mild form of autism called Asperger's Syndrome, sometimes seem socially inept. It isn't because they are incapable of changing. It is because many of the little things that dumber people do in social situations are obviously ridiculous. Obvious to them that is. Saying "God bless you", offering High Fives, asking "what's up" or "how are you" (when you obviously don't really care). Going crazy when ten strangers at your college win a basketball game."


Well, plenty of science minded people (and intelligent non-science minded people) enjoy their college sports teams, and have the good manners to acknowledge the presence of other people ("hey" or even a nod, qualify).

Perhaps David sees Dumb people, only they don't know they are dumb?


Sklansky continues:

"Now I'm not talking about those poor souls who rarely shower, wear two different shoes, forget to zip up their fly or stuff like that. They miss those skills that are logical and obvious. But many of the more subtle skills are more likely to be found in the less intelligent because it is easier for them to not notice how silly or artificial a certain accepted mode of behavior is.

When I was in fifth grade I was berated for wearing pants with cuffs as they were "out" that year. I will never forget how angry that made me since it was clear that there was no intrinsic reason to wear cuffs or no cuffs except for what some irrelevant person decided was in. Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind. Highly intelligent math types can't do that. They recognize how silly those little rituals are whether they want to or not. Others find it easier to suspend disbelief."



The last three sentences above prompted me to reply. I don't remember thinking that the "little rituals", like small talk for example, were silly. I did realize that I was not gifted in this area, so as I went from high school to college, I made the conscious decision to be more outgoing, and more involved, than I had been previously.

Could some other "math" types chime in here -- did anyone refrain from social rituals, small talk, etc, because they thought it was "silly"?



Sklansky concludes:

"Now I understand that SOME rituals are helpful to grease conversations and avoid uncomfortable situations. Math geniuses realize this too. But that doesn't stop them from feeling a bit silly when they use them. Much sillier than the average Joe. On the other hand it is important to understand that the majority of math geniuses can learn these silly rituals if they find it imperative to do so. And get better at them than most who don't know math. Just
like almost everything else. "



Hmm, sounds like someone is bent on showing that math geniuses are better than any other type of genius. BTW, from personal experience, I have found the range of social skills in the geniuses I have been around to run the full range, as it does with everybody else, from the Queen of England to the scum of the earth.


Wonderful web site, excellent poker books, thank you.


Shaibel


ps - About the pants, David, get over it. Or blame your parents, like everybody else.

[David Sklansky]

All these lengthy replies make good points but none refute my original one. Expert analytical thinkers are struck by the silliness of many arbitrary social rituals in a way that others aren't. (Not the general need for them. The rituals themselves.) And they therefore tend to feel more uncomfortable doing them than the average joe who doesn't think about that stuff. But I never disputed that those thinkers shouldn't make an effort to overcome that discomfort to get what they want.

[Number27]

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Likewise for most of the more trivial (but highly noticed) social skills. Especially those that guys use to attract young girls. Most people just accept them and make them a habit without dissecting them in their mind.

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If the point of the behavior is to attract a girl and said girl becomes attracted then the behavior is not silly. It is silly to an intellectual because he is more concerned with learning than mating.

I would argue that it is impossible to quantify desires and pursuits in terms of value; and therefore impossible to determine what social nuances are or are not irrelevant. Who are you to say that a person is silly because they feel better about themselves when they where a more chic brand of clothing.

That same person could then turn around and tell you that it is silly to spend all of your time working on math instead of enjoying the world around you. You would inevitably retort that you enjoy math and that it is not a waste of time.

The way a person behaves and the value of that behavior will corrolate directly to the priorities of the individual.

[VanVeen]

i refuted your point in my original post by stating that when viewed objectively, i.e. analytically, social conventions are value-neutral. they are not silly or contemptible. whether or not you judge them silly depends on your emotional circuitry as channelled by your cognitive powers.

actions are value-neutral. actions are value-neutral. actions are value-neutral. actions are value-neutral. analytic thought stripped of emotion would not classify them as 'silly' (notwithstanding a purely descriptive classification of connotative meaning within different groups, etc.) because the notion of 'silliness' is predicated on a value-judgement, which requires emotional investment. silliness is not something apprehended only by those with an especially keen eye. it does not inhere in things in the universe. are you getting it? therefore, what you originally said cannot possibly be true. you're mischaracterising the putative cause of their ineptitude. there's no need to elaborate or grant you any points - what you said is false.

i don't know if this dude ignores me or what but i win the thread, as usual.

[ill rich]

feeling uncomfortable in social situations isn't a product of being a expert thinker it's a product of being socially akward

now you might have a point if you said that expert thinkers were generally more socially akward due to the wiring of their brain

maybe natural selection selected against expert thinkers because it didn't matter much when you hunted for survival if you could divide pi into any 4 digit number, so biology made them inept in social situations therefore they wouldn't breed and pass on their non-advantageous genes.

[drunkencowboy]

You know, some of the stupidest people Ive ever come across are psychologists or people with psychology degrees...

How come these people think they know more about the human mind than the rest of us? Because they got a degree from a college? Give me a break.
s
Colleges hand out psychology to people who are too dumb to get real degrees (in things that require upper level thinking).

Anyways, as far as your original post goes, David:

This is life. This is what you have been dealt. You live on a planet with a bunch of ants (people) who tend to behave like robots for the purpose of fullfilling some meaning less goal. If you dont like it, theres always suicide. I wouldnt dwell on social short comings for very long because youre probably guilty of a few rituals yourself that go unnoticed by you.

- Here is a related TOPIC that I discussed with my younger bro yesterday:

Why does society have such a high regard for actors? Figures like Al Pacino, or Jack Nicholson, Tom Cruise, or Jared from Subway, are almost idolized by society. What exactly did these people do to deserve respect? - They pretended to be somebody important, somebody cool or smooth... Why does the guy who pretends to be a fireman on camera get more respect than the fireman?

I just think its funny how gay the whole thing is. If you watch a late night talk show, like with Jay Leno or Letterman, you get to hear some guy talk about some wild story that sounds made up and you get to hear the audience go wild over it. Its like the actor is Gods gift to Earth.

[Bubble Bully]

Social people rule the world. Closeted (word?) geeks are used for their talents and then are throwned back into the toy box until they are needed.

Who do you really want to be?

20/20 had an article about how popular people got ahead in life. The social skills that made them popular in high school and college also made it possible for them to climb the corporate ladder. Only the foolish think that they can make it on technical skills alone.