high stakes limit

[milesdyson]

Yeah I'd fold J9, but say I had JTs with a bdfd, I'd call. I feel like most people would call with any JTo (and many just never fold to flop check raises with ATC). Either way that's a pretty small set of hands that might fold incorrectly to the flop check raise.

[cdlarmore]

But against a random who posts in and raises his post, I 3 bet A5s...anyone else feeling that or do i hate money?

[DrewOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
But against a random who posts in and raises his post, I 3 bet A5s...anyone else feeling that or do i hate money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course many people do that, but this is totally off-topic. The hand in question is being played 2-handed.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not that familiar with pokerstove. I have it, but don't use it much. Can you give me an example of how you would input the range of ALL hands? I mean, do you sit there and separately input A5s, vs. AK, AQ,... JTs, etc.?

All I know is that A5s is going to be ahead of many hands (even when 3-bet). I play a lot of HU and know this from experience (I admit NOT from any formal study of simulations). When playing HU the sb will raise pf with a wide range of hands and subsequently be 3-bet by an even wider range (this is only not true when the bb plays a weaker game, and in some other rare/isolated instances).

If you run A5s against other 3-bettable non-ace hands, such as KJs, et al., I'm pretty sure A5s is NOT a dog on a Q76 flop (that's without analysis of simulations, but I'm willing to bet that's right. Again, this from tons of experience playing HU. If I'm that wrong here, then I should be the one expected to be broke and that's far from the case and I've played a great deal against some pretty tough competition at high stakes.) So I can't be that far off here, if at all.

I realize the disadvantage of of position along with the futile strategy of taking any ace to the river. But even if I am taking a micro-economic viewpoint vs. a macro one, micro edges are everything HU! You cannot wait until you have a safe, large edge against good opponents.

What's frustrating me, is that I keep hearing how A5s is a dog against the "range of ALL hands" on this flop. This doesn't say anything without providing some examples and lines of play vs. some of these hands. So please help me out. Either provide some real world examples, or explain how you're using stove to arrive at this very rigid (and myopic in my opinion), conclusion that check/folding will almost always be preferrable to check/raising here.

[edit:] Also please note that I haven't even begun to argue any merit of the minor backdoor straight potential of A5 here. Granted, it's minor, but it still adds to A5's value.

[/ QUOTE ]

YOu are looking for something more than what he said. The A5 is worse than average by a pretty good bit, about 8%. This is about the same degree to which AK is behind a mid pocket pair preflop. It just means that the A5 will only win 46% of all hands played to conclusion.

That said, I don't think it is a fold using that logic, certainly. You are getting 7:1 to call right now. That is certainly a big enough overlay to play with an 8% disadvantage. His pot equity is 46% of 7 small bets, which is lots more than the 1 bet he is folding for.

He should not have even brought up the fact that it is an underdog in his post because it will only have people check poker stove to see how much of an underdog it is and how bad the fold is. Even if he expects to call this small bet, and then a big bet on the turn, and another on the river he is putting in 5 small bets to win 11 (the 7 sb in there now plus the additional bets the opponent makes). Win that 46% of time time and you're looking good.

In limit holdem you would not fold in a pot where you have 46% equity very often. The bet you were calling would have to be more than 46% of the pot for this to be correct.

[Lestat]

You just summed up on ONE single post what's taken me several posts (and tons of grief), and STILL not get to the point you did! I'm sure that's because I suck at math and couldn't properly explain WHY you shouldn't check/fold this hand EVERY single time in a HU match. But I know you shouldn't. Thanks!

[Victor]

seriously lestat, why are you putting words in our mouth? not one of us advocated folding. we simply said we are a dog on this flop. btw, you advocated cring.

folding >>>>>> cring

emerson,

"His pot equity is 46% of 7 small bets, which is lots more than the 1 bet he is folding for."

our equity is 46% if villains hand range is every [censored] hand. come on, you should know this. realistically he is 3betting between 20-35% of hands and we have 30-37% equity.

[gehrig]

nothing folds to a flop CR

the reason to cr the flop here is so u can get a hand like AJ or 33 to fold if an ugly card turns

oop i wouldnt peel as a default here. if villain will chk turn too much or his range is wide enough that i dont feel bad about showing down i'll peel.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
it seems that most of you have missed the most important post in this thread. let me quote it for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I really wonder why you bother making posts like this. If you think it's unimportant, not posting something stupid twice seems like a reasonable option.

I think a fold is very reasonable with the terrible implied odds being coupled with the chance being bluffed off the best hand some of the time. Also, your opponent is unlikely to be light in the first hand of a heads up match IMO.

[Azalin]

I am not a great HU player but if that was the first hand of the match i am going to showdown more often than not starting with calling the flop bet.