Play a Hand With the Masters Results and Panel Comments

[Rduke55]

I really liked the street by street. One, because that's how we're presented with the decisions while playing, and two, often we (at least me) don't make the perfect decision on one of the streets and we have to figure out how to play it now that we've screwed up and are off our plan.

[CardSharpCook]

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I really liked the street by street. One, because that's how we're presented with the decisions while playing, and two, often we (at least me) don't make the perfect decision on one of the streets and we have to figure out how to play it now that we've screwed up and are off our plan.

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agreed. A deffinate benefit of this method is that we can't simply say, "well, you screwed up PF." We are faced with a new situation on every street and not one of our own making.

[Toro]

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Man.

I really think this could've been better.

Preflop is pretty boring. It has a huge effect on the hand, but there are obviously many different effective ways of not folding your hand, and no one would disagree. I frankly dont care about preflop except maybe what soss was having in terms of visual reads.

The flop is a very very interesting street. I think more interesting than the turn or the river. This hand was analyzed street by street, but the problem is that this hand is most interesting when you consider the entire picture of the hand, and not some street-by-street commentary. I really think with stacks like this I bet that flop more than I check it.

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Looking back and reading the comments, I think that I still check behind there following the rule of not cont betting when in position multihanded.

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To me this is something that separates the good ones from the poor ones, especially in a deep multi like this one. Here is why you bet the flop:

1) Because they will fold better hands.

2) Because people will call with hands like QT KT AT JT Q9 whatever.

3) Because people rarely bluff raise in multi-handed pots. Im willing to back down on this, but from what I know about Miami john he's not the type to CR here with pure air if you bet the flop.

So why would I list 2 as a reason to bet? Well, its because if you improve your hand you can extract a lot of value, and if you dont improve your hand you can just exit stage left. Its a perfect spot to look for in poker. Your opponent (if he holds QT or something on the flop) will probably willing to go check check check check to showdown, and he will also probably be willing to go check-call pot bet, check-call pot bet. You want your opponents to be in this defensive spot. You hit a jack or maybe even an ace, you can definitely extract some value but also dont have too big a hand where you can probably make a read and fold if you are behind.

Also, something never conisdered in this hand was the flop/turn combination. Damn right I'm suspicious. So you check behind on the flop and then make a nice raise on the turn. I feel like even selling KJ with that line is unbelievable because you are going to bet that flop more than you will check with KJ. I think selling a pair of queens is also unbelievable because you'd probably just call or raise smaller if you thought your opponent was drawing to a jack. The 'raise the turn' to get to showdown play borrowed from limit.

It's clearly the biggest problem with this hand. Once you check behind on the flop and then raise the turn, you are really going to have a hard time selling any good hand. And in those big buy in fields, people are generally not scared to go with their read and call you down. Your villain played very well. There are probably other ways you could've played this hand to get a different result.

-Jason

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With all due respect Jason, why didn't you post your opinions prior to the results like everyone else?

[Grumbo]

Excellent series of posts Lloyd. I found them very useful and educational.

[gergery]

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I thought the excercise was fantastic. I didnt participate because I remembered talking about this hand with Soss and didnt want to taint the debate with my possibly results oriented thinking. At the time, I agreed with Soss's raise on the turn, the debate persuaded me that a call is probably better. As for the format, I'm torn. I like the idea of discussing it street by street, decision by decision, at the same time though Strassa is right that the big picture of the hand can get lost. Here's my solution, while the discussion should progress street by street, the debate on each street (both by the panelists and by the madding crowd) should include plans for playing the turn. For example, on this hand, an advocate of checking the flop should include his turn (and maybe even river) contingencies for how he will act if he picks up a draw, or blanks, or pairs, or whatever. That way, you are focusing on relating a decision on a specific street to the big picture. Just a thought.

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Completely agree. I thought the format and discussion was awesome!

Jason had some good points and I found myself thinking, "well what i would bet/do on the turn completely depends on what i feel most comfortable doing if the river blanks"

But this style of discussion rocks

--greg

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

I mean, I guess? I feel like live in big buy in tournies people dont make these mistakes... But then I realized that I busted in wpt paris doing something along the lines of not really calculating the size of someones stack.

[Jason Strasser (strassa2)]

Because I didnt see the post? I dunno I dont really check MTT every day and I saw the hand and made comments. You can fairly accuse me of looking at results and commenting if you want I guess. I really dont see the point of this post though.

-Jason

[grandgnu]

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Because I didnt see the post? I dunno I dont really check MTT every day and I saw the hand and made comments. You can fairly accuse me of looking at results and commenting if you want I guess. I really dont see the point of this post though.

-Jason

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Fight, fight, fight!

Oooh, challenge him to a heads-up match, and try to bring more cash to the table than him so he's insta-shamed, w00t!

[Lloyd]

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Because I didnt see the post? I dunno I dont really check MTT every day and I saw the hand and made comments. You can fairly accuse me of looking at results and commenting if you want I guess. I really dont see the point of this post though.

-Jason

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It did dawn on me that perhaps you didn't see that this was the 5th part posted for this hand. Since we're really trying to step up the content in MTT perhaps this WILL get you looking at MTT every day, or at least more frequently. No biggie.

[Toro]

Well it was up for several days and hindsight is 20/20 and the rest of us put our reputations out there so to speak by submitting our opinions without knowing results.

It just didn't seem fair to put yours out there after the results were in but if you didnt see it then I apologize.