Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Flop - Page 7

betgo · #61 09-19-2005, 09:42 PM

This is not a good result. You got 2 callers when you were hoping to take down the pot. Then the flop comes T93. There is a lot of potential for pairs, sets, and straight draws.

With 2 opponents, it is unlikely you are ahead with ace high. You are only ahead of Axs, a small suited connector/gapper, or KQ/KJ (which have nut gutshot draws plus overcards).

You have 6 outs to a pair, but it is hard to play AJ on a JT9 board. You have 10 outs for a nut flush draw, but a flush draw isn't so strong on the turn.

I agree with others. I would check behind and hope to pick up something or get an opportunity to make a move on the turn. However, my main plan would be to fold the hand.

I wouldn't bet half pot into 2 opponents on this board. If I was going to bet the hand, I would bet 1500 at a 2000 pot, representing and overpair, and I would fold to a checkraise.

fnurt · #62 09-19-2005, 09:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just made a post in the preflop thread about my read on MJ's play that maybe I should have stated up front. I've played with him in two large buyin events (this one and the 1500NL wsop). Both times he was to my direct left. He was the picture of solid pro. Think Dan Harrington vol. 1. Solid values for his position. Tight from the blinds and EP, selective vs. raises...

given the fact that he flat called preflop knowing that he was going to be OOP the whole time and he wasn't closing the action vs. a semi-scary open limp from the CO told me everything I needed to know about his hand. 22-JJ, AK, AQ. Possibly a random suited connector / bluffing hand if he had some read on me or the CO that I didn't know about.

In short, he either hit this flop hard, or whiffed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only is no apology necessary for not stating this up front, I think it made the discussion better. This aspect of the hand was an important test: Do people realize that a flat call of your raise from a good player likely means something, given that he has the worst position and doesn't care if CO might be trapping? Even against a wacky any-two-cards player like Hansen or Negreanu, unless they had been playing virtually every hand, I'd be concerned about a real hand here. There's just so many better spots for a pro to toss a few chips in and gamble.

grandgnu · #63 09-19-2005, 10:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not only is no apology necessary for not stating this up front, I think it made the discussion better. This aspect of the hand was an important test: Do people realize that a flat call of your raise from a good player likely means something, given that he has the worst position and doesn't care if CO might be trapping? Even against a wacky any-two-cards player like Hansen or Negreanu, unless they had been playing virtually every hand, I'd be concerned about a real hand here. There's just so many better spots for a pro to toss a few chips in and gamble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even better to make a continuation bet here, find out where you stand. If MJ calls or raises, with the CO left to act, you can be sure you are behind in this spot. But with the CO left to act, if he folds, then we're in better shape here.

fnurt · #64 09-19-2005, 10:28 PM

But see, I don't want to know if I'm behind, because after getting called in 2 places and whiffing on the flop, I already know that I'm very likely to be behind. If I think it's raining, I don't walk outside without an umbrella just to be sure.

Exitonly · #65 09-19-2005, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But see, I don't want to know if I'm behind, because after getting called in 2 places and whiffing on the flop, I already know that I'm very likely to be behind. If I think it's raining, I don't walk outside without an umbrella just to be sure.

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I'm w/ fnurtt here... theres not that much to find out... you are most likely behind... Preflop i liked raising to limit his range a bit and find otu where you were because you were likely ahead... Now you're not, so lets see another card that will most likely improve our hand some. Then I assume MJ will bet out, we can see what CO does and then act accordingly.

curtains · #66 09-19-2005, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But see, I don't want to know if I'm behind, because after getting called in 2 places and whiffing on the flop, I already know that I'm very likely to be behind. If I think it's raining, I don't walk outside without an umbrella just to be sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

curtains · #67 09-19-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But see, I don't want to know if I'm behind, because after getting called in 2 places and whiffing on the flop, I already know that I'm very likely to be behind. If I think it's raining, I don't walk outside without an umbrella just to be sure.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

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One quick note - I believe that a lot of top players would bet this flop. Whenever I watch Barry Greenstein play, Im always expecting to him to check these types of flop when he raises and gets 2 callers, and I swear that in every one of these instances he bets at it.

I prefer to check, but just because I prefer to do something, doesn't mean that it may not be correct for someone else to play in a different manner.

Exitonly · #68 09-19-2005, 11:41 PM

And that right there is the difference between the pro's and us commonfolk.

They hit these flops.

curtains · #69 09-19-2005, 11:53 PM

Hey now, just because I'm not on TV doesn't mean I'm not a pro.

EverettKings · #70 09-19-2005, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I just made a post in the preflop thread about my read on MJ's play that maybe I should have stated up front. I've played with him in two large buyin events (this one and the 1500NL wsop). Both times he was to my direct left. He was the picture of solid pro. Think Dan Harrington vol. 1. Solid values for his position. Tight from the blinds and EP, selective vs. raises...

given the fact that he flat called preflop knowing that he was going to be OOP the whole time and he wasn't closing the action vs. a semi-scary open limp from the CO told me everything I needed to know about his hand. 22-JJ, AK, AQ. Possibly a random suited connector / bluffing hand if he had some read on me or the CO that I didn't know about.

In short, he either hit this flop hard, or whiffed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, then I think betting the flop is mandatory and folding to further aggression is also mandatory.

If he missed his hand, you bet 1500, he very likely folds, and the CO is highly unlikely to c/r you here OOP without a real hand. You can safely fold to a reraise, since it's quite likely that you're smoked and a push will certainly not win you the pot off of a set or even JJ (since you dont have enough chips).

If he hit his hand, you bet 1500 and MJ calls or raises. You are now officially done with the hand. Checking the flop here is DISASTROUS because you can go on to hit your hand or a draw and lose all of your chips. You no longer know where you're at and he can get the chips in as he pleases. By checking you can only win the pot if you hit AND he didn't nail the flop AND he doesnt dominate your ace if you hit it.

My earlier read was something like Adanthar's, where his range is enormous and includes lots of garbage and one pair hands. But with Soss's description, ya gotta take your one shot at the pot now.

Everett