Play a Hand With the Masters #1 Pre-Flop

[A_PLUS]

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Hey that's really interesting. Are you saying that as a general rule, the benefits of late position apply mostly to drawing hands?

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Position rules regardless of your hand when the stacks are this deep, but if you had to choose, you would play your drawing hands on the button, and your 'best-now' hands OOP.

The point is, with AJ it is unlikely that someone is going to be calling large bets when you have the best hand post flop. You dont want to take it against 4 players. You want to take against one player.

[DireWolf]

The decision to raise or call here depends largely on all of the possible villans view of Hero and a lot of other stuff, which doesn't come across on an internet board very well. And even if Hero can't explicitely state his reads, im sure he has an intuitive sense about them.

How has Hero been playing, what hands is he percieved to be raising here with? What hands will he be percieved to be limping here. Has Hero limped before in the CO/button? How did those hands play out if he did? How has CO been playing post flop?

Preflop here doesn't really mean [censored]. Preflop should only be a plan to guide us to the most value post flop, where the real money is won and lost with stacks this deep.

These hands seem really hard to play in a vacuum. Sure raising to 500 or so is a fine default line and is def. +EV but is it the most +EV? I dunno, and its hard to tell with out know a lot more information i think.

[bruce]

Here's my two cents. Firstly, without being there I don't have
a real accurate feel for what the cutoffs limp actually means.
It's been mentioned that he's tight. Does that mean he might
try setting a trap with a big hand by limping? Or is he so tight he will limp with 67s hoping to flop big.

Secondly, we can't overlook the presense of Miami John. I've played with him numerous times. If he senses weakness by the cutoff or button there's a strong likelyhood he's going to make a move in this spot. I hate like hell to call
on the button and then have Miami John make a move and then
I have no idea where I really stand especially if the initial limper just calls. Does John have a real hand or is
he trying to pick up easy dead money? If John makes a move
and the limper calls do I then raise? Raising BTF will make
the hand playout a lot easier at least BTF.

I think it's close between calling and raising. Since this
is a 10k buyin event and it's deepstacked if in doubt I'll make it
4x the big blind and play from there. I make a slightly bigger bet BTF to take into account the limper. I really don't think calling is a bad play either, it's really very
close.

Bruce

[woodguy]

I have a few follow up questions:

Suppose you have raised 600 pre flop and you get a call from the CO. What hands are we willing to represent post flop.

#1 - If the flop comes low are we making a move when checked to us?

<font color="blue"> -If its really ragged, rainbow I would probably check, because that's what AA does trying to induce a bluff on the turn
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#2 -I know there are many variances of potential flops, but I would also like to here how one would deal higher coordinated flop. Something like A J Q I his pre flop call has made this board as scary as it is good, thoughts?

<font color="blue">
-I probably bet 2/3 pot and will make the third bet if he raises, as I would expect a c/r to be a draw on this board. We are 50/50 with a straight+flush draw right now, so I want to put in the last raise.
He probably doesn't have a set, and if he called a PF raise with KT out of position, well good for him. AQ is a slight concern, but I would expect him to raise that PF.

Another line which is o.k., but not my preference is to call the flop lead or raise, then get aggressive on a blank turn, the bad part of this line is when the turn isn't a blank and you get bet into.
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Maybe it is too much for on post but I will throw it out there. These two situations would be foolowing the suggestions of limping.

#3 A low uncoordinated flop. What's your play when a) checked to you? b) Half sized pot bet into you??

<font color="blue">
-I limped in, I fold.
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#4 How do you handle a flop like ( A J Q ) when a) checked? b) 1/2 pot bet into you??

<font color="blue">
-Bet if checked to, raise if bet into, although if its a limped pot I may be more carefull that if it was a raised pot due to the opponents very wide range, which can include iffy hands like KT, T9.
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Hope these are appropriate for this. I love this idea btw, very interesting to hear from players I respect a lot.

P <font color="blue"> </font>

[justT]

CO's tight and he limped from a stealing position, he's not in there with complete trash. The most likely hand here is a small-med pair, maybe a suited connector. With a big pair, he's raising to protect it and unlikely he's limp-raising with only 3 people left to act. If he's playing a couple of big cards, he's probably raising to try and take it down preflop.

AJs in position will play well against a couple of players, and Hero really doesn't have anything yet, so I guess limping wouldn't be horrible here. But with stacks this deep, I say make it 600 to go.

[zoobird]

With only 3 players to go and no limpers ahead of him, wouldn't CO be even more interesting in raising to protect a small-medium pair than with a high pair?

[mts]

I have no experience against this calibur of opponent. In a stars tourny i would raise about 5x to isolate headsup. here though..

Honestly, i don't think Preflop matters. At first i thought a raise was obvious but now i think its trivial. I like limping because i like playing small pots against tight players. AJs is the type of hand you could flop a disguised monster and get paid off fairly easily. The SB is probably completing with any 2 suited.

Depending on my mood, i raise to play headsup 75% and limp 25%.

[SossMan]

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I would raise without thinking to 600

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this is exactly what I did...my thought process was something like:

he open limp in CO....he tight player....don't want blinds in w/ me on this hand...i have position...i raise 3x + 1x for every limper....t600 to go.

I generally don't really respect LP open limps as much as I probably should, but you will typically find out preflop if you are dominated, so the raise is as much for info as it is for shania (don't limp my button).

With stacks this deep, though, I'm thinking that limping behind isn't bad, and I'm relatively indiferent between the two.

[justT]

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Secondly, we can't overlook the presense of Miami John. I've played with him numerous times. If he senses weakness by the cutoff or button there's a strong likelyhood he's going to make a move in this spot.

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That completely changes the picture. The CO is much more likely to be trapping if he has the same read.

[ononimo]

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For me, it's close between limping and raising. Ordinarily, I'd be inclined to raise and would take a line very similar to McMelchior's. However, in this particular instance, I'd limp in hopes of flopping a big hand because the CO's limp appears very suspicious to me.

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Not being accusatory, honestly curious....if we put the co on a "trapping hand" what exactly do we hope to flop?

If an Ace comes, can we be sure our kicker is good? Even if the Jack comes, will it be top pair? Are we limping here hoping against hope for 2 pair or a flush?

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the same things you hope to flop when you raise, but in a smaller pot with a different percieved range.

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Maybe it's still too early yet, but that makes my eyes bleed [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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said another way, I'd be hoping for the same kind of flop(s) that I'd hope for if I had raised preflop ... however, now the pot is smaller and it will cost me less to define my hand and/or get away from it (i.e. cheaper to get away from a check-raise when I bet out at flop where I made top pair).