High Stakes Poker - run it twice - Page 7

geo8o2 · #61 02-13-2006, 09:04 AM

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Barry Greenstein on a Live at the Bike episode talked about how he doesn't like running it multiple times as he wants to punish people by making them have to play for the whole pot.

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Interesting. That's a clever way to exploit opponents who may fear variance. I assume he cares almost exclusively about EV and thus feels that he is not being "punished" when he is the underdog and someone only runs it once with him.

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he's probably in with the best most of time

Python49 · #62 02-13-2006, 09:24 AM

Don't mean to hijack but I just have to comment on this.

I just got done watching episode four and Sammy Farha said one of the funniest lines ive heard in tv poker. When Sheiky is getting outplayed by todd brunson, farha says in the backgroud "You need to read some books about poker!" in a pretty funny voice. Everyone laughed at him. I found this hilarious.

octop · #63 02-13-2006, 10:54 AM

What Greenstein says is interesting. However I think it may have the opposite effect. A donkey maybe me more willing to call an all in with a straight draw if yo run it more than once. He may have more gamble in him since he figures he probly wont lose the hole pot.

octop · #64 02-13-2006, 10:55 AM

I also found it interestimg that Nagranu ran it twice as the dog but immediately told farha he only wanted to run it twice when he was the favorite.

jaybert · #65 02-13-2006, 10:57 AM

I know the idea of running it multiple times is not suppose to be +EV or -EV, but isnt there at least some +EV/-EV involved? If you're running it three times, and looking for a 2 outer...isnt this -EV? Since it is actually impossible for you to win the pot all 3 times? Each run you hit your card, thats 1 less card you can hit, not to mention 1 more card that your opponent needs to dodge.

Can anyone explain this concept and while overall there is no +EV/-EV only variance that changes?

Gobgogbog · #66 02-13-2006, 11:36 AM

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Can anyone explain this concept and while overall there is no +EV/-EV only variance that changes?

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You correctly observed that when you hit your outs you are less likely to win the next time through, but you failed to mention that when you miss your outs you are more likely to win the next time through.

Cooker · #67 02-13-2006, 11:48 AM

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I know the idea of running it multiple times is not suppose to be +EV or -EV, but isnt there at least some +EV/-EV involved? If you're running it three times, and looking for a 2 outer...isnt this -EV? Since it is actually impossible for you to win the pot all 3 times? Each run you hit your card, thats 1 less card you can hit, not to mention 1 more card that your opponent needs to dodge.

Can anyone explain this concept and while overall there is no +EV/-EV only variance that changes?

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The EV of running it twice (or even as many times as possible) is exactly the same as the EV of running it once, and I mean exactly no tenth place digits different, not nearly, EXACTLY. This is true whether you reshuffle the first dealt cards into the deck or not. Since it is obvious if you reshuffle, I will not go into that case.

I showed this in detail already in this thread for a specific case, but here I will try to give a bit more of an intuitive understanding. Do you think it changes your EV if you burn an extra 2 cards and just run it once? If you say no, then you now agree the second run has exactly the same EV as running it once. Certainly you must agree that the first run has the same EV as running it once. If each run has the same EV as running it once, then awarding half the pot on each run has exactly the same EV as running it once. You are getting hung up on order. The order the cards are revealed doesn't matter to your EV once you are all in.

drewjustdrew · #68 02-13-2006, 12:59 PM

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What Greenstein says is interesting. However I think it may have the opposite effect. A donkey maybe me more willing to call an all in with a straight draw if yo run it more than once. He may have more gamble in him since he figures he probly wont lose the hole pot.

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What if the donkey is willing to make the call and it is correct for him to do so, when he might otherwise consider incorrectly folding? This is a more likely situation and reason why Barry would adopt his attitude.

Blackmarks · #69 02-13-2006, 03:50 PM

it is interesting how difficult this seems to be for some of you to understand.

NegativeZero · #70 02-13-2006, 04:59 PM

...So I guess I have the same EV with my one-outer running it twice without shuffling?

You have proven nothing.