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#61
12-28-2006, 05:28 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] free cards for which we gain no value. [/ QUOTE ] We gain value when he bluffs. Or when he calls us down with a hand like 77. Or when he calls our river bet with AK. [/ QUOTE ] So you are turning a weak overpair into a bluff-catcher on the flop?? Can we at least agree on villain's range? What % of the time is under PPs? What % is drawing hands (6+ outers)? [/ QUOTE ] I don't know Villain's range, but it's smaller PPs a not-insignificant amount of the time. I've made my points in this thread and I don't think I can say much more. Betting that flop is not the worst play in the world, but it more often gets picked off or raised when we're crushed and it lets losing hands off the hook. [/ QUOTE ] You fail to realize that the times we "let losing hands off the hook" we ship ourselves $50. this is a good thing. I don't see the point in giving him a shot at the pot for free. If he "pushes us off our hand" we're beat. So its an easy fold. When he bets the turn WTF does that mean. We don't know because we haven't asked him yet. 
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#62
12-28-2006, 05:28 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
Listen, I'm not saying there's absolutely no way he has 77 here, but on the flop I don't think you can assign that as a SIGNIFICANT part of his range. It is much more likely that his range is smaller than that.
Now, once we get to the river and see how he played his hand, 77 becomes a decent possibility (which is why I like a VB). But betting the flop b/c he might call w/ 77 is DUMB.
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#63
12-28-2006, 05:29 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
bet flop, check turn is a much better line, it's a bit harder to make it seem like you have AK/random bluff with the line you took. either way i bet the river for a bit more than 1/2 pot ($60 or $70)
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#64
12-28-2006, 05:29 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
Tick, It's cool, agree to disagree. But your point that we should bet to fold out worse hands and force better hands to raise is contrary to our goals in general. [/ QUOTE ] You're missing the point that AJ will often have the worst hand with a flop bet here.
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#65
12-28-2006, 05:30 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
When he bets the turn WTF does that mean. We don't know because we haven't asked him yet. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not a fan of betting or raising to "see where we're at," which is essentially what you advocate here.
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#67
12-28-2006, 05:34 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] II'm not sure what he calls you with on the river that you beat, but maybe AK and some smaller PPs. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, 88, 77, 66, 55... [/ QUOTE ] Those are all pretty bad calls. Does he think AJ checked flop to float turn and bluff river?
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#68
12-28-2006, 05:35 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] When he bets the turn WTF does that mean. We don't know because we haven't asked him yet. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not a fan of betting or raising to "see where we're at," which is essentially what you advocate here. [/ QUOTE ] It's exactly what I'm advocating. But its has many side benefits as well that I've already mentioned. I'm not a fan of it either if there is no reason to bet other than to see where I am at. But this is also a protection bet.
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#69
12-28-2006, 05:35 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
Listen, I'm not saying there's absolutely no way he has 77 here, but on the flop I don't think you can assign that as a SIGNIFICANT part of his range. It is much more likely that his range is smaller than that. Now, once we get to the river and see how he played his hand, 77 becomes a decent possibility (which is why I like a VB). But betting the flop b/c he might call w/ 77 is DUMB. [/ QUOTE ] I agree with most of this. 77 is reasonably possible by river, thus VB. My flop bet is NOT to get value from 77, because that (smaller PPs) is a small portion of his range. I am attempting to get value from draws, including overs, which are the larger portion of his range. If he was most likely to have an underPP, I would DEF check to induce bluffs/calls later. I don't mind letting a 2-outer chase for 1 free card.
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#70
12-28-2006, 05:35 PM
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Re: JJ 3bet and in position
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] II'm not sure what he calls you with on the river that you beat, but maybe AK and some smaller PPs. [/ QUOTE ] Yep, 88, 77, 66, 55... [/ QUOTE ] Those are all pretty bad calls. Does he think AJ checked flop to float turn and bluff river? [/ QUOTE ] Isura, I'm not arguing they are good calls, but I see them made plenty.
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