100/200 A4o on the button

[DcifrThs]

great post tommy.

two things i didn't see in there though are 1) how often do you get 4 bet on that flop?...this complicates matters b/c you're now getting odds to call down to river anyways and just paying more 2) you have no Gack here getting 5.25:1 on a 5.6:1 shot (assuming 7 clean outs). you are not folding this turn if you call the flop and he bets.

does this change your conclusion at all? b/c now, you have completely avoided the gack.

i do see what you're saying though in this spot and if all else is equal, im more likely to 3bet here vs. a new guy than vs. somebody ive played w/ a lot before for the meta reasons youve stated.

further, lets change your hand to A6 (i forget the board but some ace w/ a kicker below the top card and no other straight/flush draw). how do you feel about 3 betting the c'r now vs. gacking it up?

assuming we continue to avoid gack, how do you feel about the turn/river following you're 3 bet in the A6ish hand?

also, in this current hand, assuming you do 3bet the flop, how are you approaching that same turn/river?

i ask these general questions knowing the turn/river cards bring variability to your answers b/c im more interested in your loqutious and entertaining thought processes. so knowing i know the general responses here (i.e. bluffing frequencies w/ different cards etc.), how are you approaching this combo in the two above situations (A4 vs. A6ish)

Barron

[andyfox]

Thank you. My work is done here now.

[Tommy Angelo]

Hi Barron,

"two things i didn't see in there though are 1) how often do you get 4 bet on that flop?...this complicates matters b/c you're now getting odds to call down to river anyways and just paying more 2) you have no Gack here getting 5.25:1 on a 5.6:1 shot (assuming 7 clean outs). you are not folding this turn if you call the flop and he bets."

Sure I am. I mean, I don't know if I am. It would totally depend on the moment. I am prepared to muck if he bets the turn, even if he doesn't fourbet the flop.

I don't assume I have 7 clean outs because that assumption is not based on reality. The reality is sometimes he will have a set, or two pair, or A8 or A5 or A2, and in all those cases, I have four outs to make a straight, and hitting an ace costs me at least 1BB on the turn and river combined. Plus he could have 34 and I could catch an ace and lose. So if he has one of those hands, and he bets the turn, I think the math says it is correct to fold. (Unless he has 34 in which case I'm raising that audacious bastard!)

I'm not saying I know when he has me nutted. I'm just saying that I don't think it's right to assume that folding to a turn bet is a mistake, even after the pot gets pumped up by a called fourbet.

Plus we didn't even talk about what if I fivebet the flop. So quickly the trees grow!

"further, lets change your hand to A6 (i forget the board but some ace w/ a kicker below the top card and no other straight/flush draw). how do you feel about 3 betting the c'r now vs. gacking it up?"

Now it depends. You've invented an entirely new hand by my way of seeing it, one that branches immediately into a region with too many branches that are player/moment dependent to even talk about. The key difference between Paluka's hand and your hand is that with the A4, I am always betting the flop, and I am never folding to the checkraise. Those two instances of "always" and "never" being in play were the reason I raised my hand (<-- a pun waiting to happen!) in the first place. With A6, I might not bet the flop, and I might fold to the checkraise. Whole new ballgame.

There's a contradiction in my posts I'd like to clear up. In a prior post I wrote...

"I already have my hand. Ace-high. I’d be happy to put in 2 or 3 bets on the flop and turn ‘em over and run it out and see who wins. So I’m definitely not folding to the checkraise, which leaves calling or raising."

Then I talked about the straight draw. In the above paragraph, what I meant was ...

"I have Ace-high which is a showdownable hand at that time of the checkraise, given the betting and cards. In addition to ace-high, I have straight outs. The two things combined make me certain I am not folding before the turn."

In your example, with A6 and no straight draw, I would not always commit to seeing the turn against all opponents all the time. With A4 I would.

"also, in this current hand [A4], assuming you do 3bet the flop, how are you approaching that same turn/river?"

Hopefully with my thinker off.

Tommy

[DcifrThs]

yes you defiantely dont always ahve 7 clean outs, but you really only need on average about 6 of them if you know you'll get on average more than a bet on the river. but yea now it's real close and may be worth folding unless you take into acct that sometimes your opponent will check the river w/ a hand worse than yours since on this fairly drawless flop (from his vision of what you hold) you're turn call would be incorrect w/ just overs (unless again it's an ace over which he thinks you may think you'll get a cheap sd w/ forcing him to bet the river...but now we're getting all crazy [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). in this case (he thinks you're showing down your ace high), he may go ahead and check his hand and 'save' a bet although a vast majority of the time any worse hand than yours will bet the river thinking you'll fold a hand better than like 4 high 14% of the time.

so coming back, the chance that you are drawing slimmer than 7 outs is slightly made up for the times you call the turn and win the pot w/o calling a river bet. since you hold an ace, and since we are dealing w/ online high limit players, those chances actually come pretty close to evening out.

the reason i believe is that online, bbs tend to defend far more liberally, and take more aggressive lines w/ hands they shouldn't in general. they do rarely give up w/ a hand like Khigh or Qhigh or (again) rarely the 4 high draw here on the river after youc all that turn bet. however, they VERY often here have hands like K9-94s, 23s etc. etc. which makes up a hugely massive part of their range. the sets, 2 pairs, and ace kicked pairs are a small part of that range for a high limit online player. not AS small as the chance of him checking the river after your turn call, but small enough that i wouldn't be so quick to fold the turn here given your analysis.

also, i was assuming the 4 bet cap thingy was in efffect so the flop 5 bet isn't possible for paluka as far as i know (im pretty sure he plays mostly PS and PP so 4 bets is the limit).

one more thing...nice pun w/ hand.

Barron

[StupidAcesSigh]

I like call, call, call if he's crazy or you've been making alot of folds and call, call, fold if you've been showing down light alot and he knows it/

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
“Tommy: why is this an almost-always 3-bet situation for you?”


Hi Andy,

Remember the dork who sat next to you in third grade? The kid who hardly ever has an answer to anything the teacher asks, but when he does have an answer to share, he jumps up and knocks his books and pencils on the floor and then he babbles out an incoherent answer?

I was doing an impression of him when I replied to Paluka’s post.

I miss posting. I still lurk though now and then. It’s just that I so rarely have anything to say. I have not played a single hand of online poker in over three years, since a few months after they invented sit-and-go’s. It got to where I was mainlining $20 S&G at Stars all day. It was great fun, but my mind went all mushy inside the addiction, so I quit online altogether and I was immediately much happier and I’ve been fortunate enough to not need to make money from online poker, so I haven’t gone back.

So it’s hard for me to get involved in a thread about an online hand because it’s hard to project myself into the described situation and ask, “What would I really do and think here?”

As to posting hands I’ve played, there too, things have changed. It used to be locally I played maybe one hour out of a hundred with one 2+2er at my table. Over the last year, the 2+2 communityism in the games I play in has been such that I decided that the best play for now was to stop posting hands.

So here I am lurking around and ready to type and I see Paluka’s hand that starts by saying the opponent is unknown. Well at table poker, there’s no such thing. Even if it’s the guy’s very first hand, I know some things. I know what he looks like, what he’s wearing, what he’s saying, what he’s not saying. It is impossible for me to not draw some conclusions and to make some assumptions, even if wrong. There is no such thing as an unknown player when I play poker. But I pretended there was before I started typing.

Next in the hand came openraising on the button with A-x and getting called by the big blind. Very familiar turf here!

Next came a rag flop, a check by the opponent, a bet by hero, which I would always do in that spot with those cards, so we’re still on very common ground, and a checkraise by the opponent. RERAISE! That’s me inside my head while reading Paluka’s post. RERAISE!

I read the replies. Hardly anyone reraising.

TEACHER! TEACHER! CALL ON ME! CALL ON ME!

::: sound of books crashing and pencils rolling :::

And this babbled out:

ME: “I don't know how much of this applies to online but at brick-and-mortar high-stakes I almost never bet the flop when I'm last to act headsup without already knowing if I am going to fold, call, or raise if my opponent checkraises.”

What I was doing there was explaining why I even felt I had anything to say in the first place. Because my decision to fold, call, or reraise is usually made before I bet the flop, this is a betting pattern that is relatively non player-dependent compared to most, which is why I feel I can talk about it at all!

ME: “In the situation you [Paluka] described, if I bet the flop and I get checkraised, I three-bet pretty much every time,”

There are two groups of reasons why I reraise here. One has to do with cards. The other with patterns and metagame.

Cards:

1) I already have my hand. Ace-high. I’d be happy to put in 2 or 3 bets on the flop and turn ‘em over and run it out and see who wins. So I’m definitely not folding to the checkraise, which leaves calling or raising. I am not able to determine the EV of those options, and I have to base the decision on something, so I base it on establishing some patterns and avoiding others, and on metagame matters.

2) I love having a straight draw compared to not having a straight draw. I hugely love it. It’s the difference between life and death. It’s the difference between drawing dead-ish to 22, 55, 88, 25, 28, 58, A5 and A8, and not.

Patterns and metagame:

Paluka’s hand invites a pattern that I have pretty much sworn off:

I openraise, one caller, pot is headsup with me last. On the flop, he checks, I bet, he checkraises, I call. On the turn, he bets, I fold.

Gack.

This and many other patterns make me gack. And I trust my gack reflex. So I contort the betting elsewhere to decrease the likelihood of gack. For example, if I were to never call a checkraise on the flop, it would permanently eliminate this gack pattern. (Other contortions related to the avoidance of this particular pattern are checking behind on the flop and folding to the checkraise.)


ME: “I three-bet pretty much every time, usually before the other guy's chips stop moving.”

But the real reason I reraise in that spot against a freshly met opponent is just to slap him.


Tommy

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Tommy. Enjoyed your post. You mentioned that you had ace high (showdown value) as a reason for 3betting, together with the straight draw. when i read it, it kind of seemed to imply that you are always showing down ace high in this situation. my question is, when are you NOT showing down ace high here? what if you didn't have the draw, or if there were a couple overcards? i know my question is vague. basically, you said you had ace high, etc (showdownable), and i am curious how often you will absolutely show this down in blind wars.

secondly, your point about the betting patterns hit home, since i am guilty of way too often using your 'gak' pattern! isn't it virtually required, though, at times? (i.e. rag flop, i c-bet w/ ak, get checkraised. two opponents in, i am closing w/ proper odds to call. in situations like these, don't i basically have to call and then fold the turn ui?

anyway, appreciate your thoughts. thanks

[siegfriedandroy]

good post dcifr. you said getting 5.25 to 1, we are now calling the turn as well?? i dont understand this. if we are getting 5.25 to 1 on the flop, aren't we getting much worse than this on the turn? also, don't we have to discount the aces?

[siegfriedandroy]

"Plus he could have 34 and I could catch an ace and lose. So if he has one of those hands, and he bets the turn, I think the math says it is correct to fold. (Unless he has 34 in which case I'm raising that audacious bastard!)"


Lol!! standard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Also, disregard my above question about the ace high showdown issues- you have already addressed them very nicely here!! still curious, though, about the second question in my above post, regarding the gak pattern- seems to me there are some situations where you would basically have to use this pattern.

[siegfriedandroy]

"Once I checkraise the flop you are an 3.1-1 underdog against my range. What this means is you atleast have to get to the river"

hey bro, could you please elaborate on these two sentences. how do you get 3.1-1, and why does this mean we have to go to riv? thanks.

[siegfriedandroy]

[ QUOTE ]
How bout this -

If you are playing "weak" (in a relative sense) and missing:

call-call-call

If you are playing weak and hitting:

call and raise turn

If you are playing strong and missing:

call-call-fold

If you are playing strong and hitting:

3bet flop, take free turn, fold river.

(all folds assume unimproved)

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you taking a free turn in the last scenario?