Joe Navarro book, Nov 7th

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]
I have and let me tell you...if their analytical abilities are held in low esteem then I'd like to meet the players held in HIGH esteem. As far as their being held in "low esteem" for their writing, I guess I'll go with Phil on this one: a New York Times bestseller speaks for itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh-oh.

I was looking forward to reading this book.

However, any book that has a co-author who doesn't understand the difference between a book that sells huge numbers on the basis of its celebrity author, and a book that might only sell twenty copies, but has content that is based upon sound rational and mathematical principles almost certainly isn't going to be worthy of my time.

If I were you, mkarlins, I'd stop digging.

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]


For those not familiar with Cardoza Publishing, here is the poker book page from their website: Poker Books.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I'm familiar with them all right. I spent years in misery because whenever I looked in a UK bookshop, they only ever had Cardoza books on the shelves -- and the only one that doesn't suck is twenty years old.

Thankfully, that situation is now rectified, and even my local Waterstones carries The Theory of Poker.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi *TT*:

[ QUOTE ]
its not Cardoza, I'm not really sure how he got involved in this discussion

[/ QUOTE ]

The Lyle Berman biography, which Karlins appears as "with Marvin Karlins" on the cover, is a Cardoza book.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing after that ill-advised, unethical and totally incorrect statement. Dear readers, Publisher Malmuth has made unfounded accusations against a fellow publisher Avery Cardoza, a publisher with far more credentials that Mr. Malmuth will ever have.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking about this, and there's a very simple way to get at the truth. Why don't you go by your local Borders or Barnes & Noble and start comparing books. Look at the paper and this includes thickness and whiteness, the binding, the art work including card pictures and othe diagrams, the English, the type setting -- especially look at margin width and type size, the cover art, and anything else you can think of. Then I suggest you post your reactions here, I'm sure it will make for interesting reading.

MM

[Peter McDermott]

[ QUOTE ]
(Also, he should compare other aspects of publishing (such as art work, type setting, and cover design.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't over egg the pudding, Mason. The cover design of two plus two books are classics because of our emotional attachment to the content, not because of the high quality of the design.

By and large, the covers look as though they were designed by a first year art student using letraset and some 1960s clip art.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi *TT*:

Karlins has been talking about Caroda Publishing which does his other poker related book. So my response to him was directed along those lines. My comments do not apply to Harper Collins even though the Play Poker Like the Pros by Phil Hellmuth that I have is done on very cheap yellow paper with very poor art work. However, to be fair, Harper Collins is a very large publisher that does many books at many different quality levels. But again, they were not who I was referring to.

Best wishes,
Mason

[mkarlins]

Dear Everyone,

Hey, I might be stubborn but I'm NOT dumb. I've done the best I could to present my point of view and have received responses, some thought out, but many where posters confuse my comments with those of individuals I quote and others who blame me for quotes I didn't make at all. I have received personal notes which are inflammatory and downright rude. I have seen an outpouring of love and "I can say or do no wrong" testimonials to Mason who seems to have taken on the role of a diety rather than a individual who just might be a bit biased and heavy-handed in his views. Along the way, aspersions have been cast against poker players who, in your estimation, might not have the mathamatical mind of a David Salansky, but who regularly go beyond theory and actually WIN at the poker tables. The players who have spoken highly of Joe Navarro's work might not be viewed with respect at this site, but they are champions. Ignore them at your own peril.

Finally, I hope that your negative attitude towards me does not impact your willingness to read Joe's book with an open mind. I truly believe he has something worthwhile to say and, in the final analysis, that is what started this whole discussion in the first place. I do think, and always will, that Mason's attack against Avery Cardoza was totally inappropriate. I also think his credibility would be heightened if he actually put his money where his mouth is: I checked his player profile on several poker sites and found...nothing. I guess there are those that play the game and those that teach it. I, at least, PLAY poker in major tournaments and have placed in the money.

I have appreciated the opportunity to write on the site. I wish you all success in life...and in poker. Thanks for taking the time to read my posts.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Peter:

[ QUOTE ]
The cover design of two plus two books are classics because of our emotional attachment to the content, not because of the high quality of the design.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. You need to go back to the appropriate time and compare cover designs. For instance, when HPFAP originally came out, it was 1988. The idea, which has now been copied in many places, to put a bad beat on the cover, was completely original then. In fact, most people didn't even realize that was the case for many years.

Today, all our book covers are designed by Two Plus Two posters. Books that have poster designs as covers are Getting Started in Hold 'em, all the Harrington books, and No Limit Hold 'em Theory and Practice. I don't think any covers out there can compete with this, and this is also our plan for all future books.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason who seems to have taken on the role of a diety

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have me confused with David.

[ QUOTE ]
I also think his credibility would be heightened if he actually put his money where his mouth is: I checked his player profile on several poker sites and found...nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you didn't find much, I rarely play a tournament. But it just turns out that in poker there is something else which most of us know as side games. I use to spend a lot of times in the games, and many people here have played against me. In addition, Two Plus Two would not exist if it wasn't for my success there.

During the past three years, with the explosion of poker worldwide, my time at the tables has been cut way down as publishing demands have gone way up. But I still do play, and even played in the main event at the WSOP this year.

[ QUOTE ]
that Mason's attack against Avery Cardoza was totally inappropriate

[/ QUOTE ]

I never attacked Cardoza, my comments were aimed at you. You claimed to know a lot about the poker publishing business, and I said that if you did you wouldn't be publishing with someone who pays very little in the way of royalties.

Again, if you really do want to learn about poker publishing, go down to your local B&N and start looking at the different books by all the different publishers. Look at the binding, the paper, the typesetting, the art work, the cover design, the English, and anything else you can think of. Once you do that, you won't need me to have a good idea what is done well and what isn't.

MM

[mkarlins]

Hey, Mason, I am familiar with side games. Tell you what, Joe is presenting a seminar on poker tells in Vegas at Caesar's Palace in November. How about you and me getting together and play a $10,000 head-to-head freezeout. I'd really enjoy that. Wouldn't cost anymore than your WSOP entry.

Best wishes,
Marv