Moderating The Forums: a suggestion

[ShakeZula06]

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You can't be serious. Substantiation is not important??


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that's not what I'm saying at all.

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If we discuss a certain issue, whatever that might be, and I call you an anti-semite without substantiating that term, is that a personal insult to you or not? If I call you a liar, again without substantiation, is that an attack on your person rather than on your ideas, or not?

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yes and yes, what's your point? I'm just saying it's not an ad hominem. he wasn't trying to DISPROVE your arguement because of your reputation, he was simply bringing it up.

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When I attack your presumed motives rather then the positions you are supporting, is that constructive dialogue or a personal smear?


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personal smear =/= ad hominem fallacy.

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How can we seriously dispute that this kind if idle name-calling is attacking the person rather than the ideas the person supports?

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WE are not. YOU are.

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(Has no one bothered to look up the definition of ad hominem?

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Using your link-

"Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason: Debaters should avoid ad hominem arguments that question their opponents' motives."

How has Dynasty questioned your motives?

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Nobody cares for exactitude here? It's saddening and puzzling.)

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Yes it is saddening and puzzling that you can stare at a defintion of a word then believe this is an example. Dynasty is a Mod. He was warning you that you are on thin ice. He was not saying your arguement is false because there is something objectionable about you. He did not question your motives. Is this that hard?

[RunDownHouse]

This thread really sucks, and I guess MicroBob is too busy at the WSOP to lock it or move it to politics.

[MicroBob]

I'm not at the WSOP.
And I'm not a mod anymore.

[Sniper]

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This thread really sucks, and I guess MicroBob is too busy at the WSOP to lock it or move it to politics.

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RDH... I see that you a bit behind in the news, so I will just let you know that Microbob no longer Mods this forum.

That said, I agree that this thread is going downhill...

[Cyrus]

I agree with the poster who pointed out that "this thread is going downhill". I started the thread to have a constructive dialogue and not to argue about what is and what is not an ad hominem attack.

So I will end this side-dialogue by pointing out what you seem to have missed: Dynasty has specifically referred to my "anti-semitic BS". So have jman220 and others. A poster who posts "anti-semitic BS" is an anti-semite. Dynasty was asked by Andy Fox, Niss, John Feeney and others to provide evidence of my alleged "anti-semitism" but no such evidence has been forthcoming.

That is attacking my person and my intent rather than my ideas. As far as the definitions of the term are concerned, this is an ad hominem attack.

I have nothing to add on this matter.

[Myrtle]

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John -- By a strict definition I think ShakeZula06 is right that Dynasty's comments were not an ad hominem attack. Shaka's comment is, however, the kind of smart-aleck BS these forums could do without.

More importantly, I am as baffled as Andy as to where Cyrus has made anti-semitic comments. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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John,

If you are correct, I then stand corrected.

As a matter of explanation (not as a defense of my position) what I was referring to as 'ad hominem' was this statememt by Dynasty....


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You're on thin ice Cyrus and you know it. Distorting the facts whether it's about jews or management of the forums isn't going to do you any good.

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...in particular, the 'distorting the facts' part of it. I interpreted that particular portion as 'ad hominem' as I saw it as an attack on the poster, not the post.

What is much more important than this tempest in a teapot surrounding my use of this term however, is Snipers last post in this thread.

He's correct.....It's going downhill. We should either get it back on track or forget it.

[John Feeney]

I want to follow up here because I see, on going back through this thread that while the comment we were talking about was not, IMO, an ad hominem attack (though I understand your complaint about it), Cyrus is right to point out that, ironically, Dynasty's follow-up comment -- "His anti-semetic postings aren't going to be allowed anymore." -- is much more problematic in that regard. Without getting into whether it's technically an adhominem attack, there's something troubling about it. For whatever reason, Dynasty is seeing and painting Cyrus as having made anti-semitic comments. And I just really doubt that's the case. I haven't read every single Cyrus post, but I've seen enough to wonder where such a view is coming from.

Few of todays's posters probably remember when Dan Hanson was driven away from these forums as a result of unfounded accusations of anti-semitism which snowballed in a troubling way. I know Dynasty is not resorting to the same tactics as that accuser today, but having seen how such things can take on a life of their own, I just hope posters will be very careful to substantiate comments which may have serious consequences.

Okay, I've involved myself in these threads more than I wanted to. Y'all get back to the moderation issues, and I'll hope something constuctive comes of it.

[Myrtle]

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I want to follow up here because I see, on going back through this thread that while the comment we were talking about was not, IMO, an ad hominem attack (though I understand your complaint about it), Cyrus is right to point out that, ironically, Dynasty's follow-up comment -- "His anti-semetic postings aren't going to be allowed anymore." -- is much more problematic in that regard. Without getting into whether it's technically an adhominem attack, there's something troubling about it. For whatever reason, Dynasty is seeing and painting Cyrus as having made anti-semitic comments. And I just really doubt that's the case. I haven't read every single Cyrus post, but I've seen enough to wonder where such a view is coming from.

Few of todays's posters probably remember when Dan Hanson was driven away from these forums as a result of unfounded accusations of anti-semitism which snowballed in a troubling way. I know Dynasty is not resorting to the same tactics as that accuser today, but having seen how such things can take on a life of their own, I just hope posters will be very careful to substantiate comments which may have serious consequences.

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John,

Thanks for the clarification and further explanation.

Yes, it is sometimes bewildering and confusing attempting to follow the posts in any thread when in reality it turns out that multiple subjects are being discussed.

I'll be the first to admit that I am not beyond getting turned around by this. regardless of how hard I try not to.

I am still waiting for Dynasty to substantiate his opinion.

Until then, as far as I'm concerned, it is only his 'opinion', and for him to threaten banning Cyrus in that regard is absolutely unreasonable.

I aslo fear what I see as 'mob mentality' surrounding this specific issue, and ask all posters, as you do, to be very sensitive to where that type of mentality leads.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

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I aslo fear what I see as 'mob mentality' surrounding this specific issue, and ask all posters, as you do, to be very sensitive to where that type of mentality leads.

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An example of what that kind of mentality can lead to is the Holocaust.

[ACPlayer]

A number of posters have been attacking the poster (not the posts) by using the term anti-semitic.

Some have been challenged, I cant remember anyone defending their use of this term.

As far as I am concerned, those who use this term, even if the posts were out and out virulently anti-semetic should consider not posting that thought (I have in the past used the term fascist or bigotted - and in the past year or so tried consciously to resist using such terms even if I think they are fit the bill -- I have regres). It is not necessary to post every thing you think.

The moderators can cull the truly anti-semitic.