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#61
05-04-2006, 05:31 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Please, A-Rod is so un-clutch it's not even funny. I mean, when was the last time he's had a game winning hit? [/ QUOTE ] Wasn't the whole concept of clutch thrown out a few years back when a study showed that being clutch (hitting well with runners on base) was just variance? For instance, the most 'clutch' hitter one year would invariably find himself in the middle of the pack the next year. [/ QUOTE ] I don't care if it is hard to find, it exists see Edgar Renteria 
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#62
05-04-2006, 05:37 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Please, A-Rod is so un-clutch it's not even funny. I mean, when was the last time he's had a game winning hit? [/ QUOTE ] Wasn't the whole concept of clutch thrown out a few years back when a study showed that being clutch (hitting well with runners on base) was just variance? For instance, the most 'clutch' hitter one year would invariably find himself in the middle of the pack the next year. [/ QUOTE ] I don't care if it is hard to find, it exists see Edgar Renteria [/ QUOTE ] Your example of clutch hitting is a guy who's career postseason OPS is .647 (compared to .743 in the regular season)?
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#63
05-04-2006, 05:43 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Please, A-Rod is so un-clutch it's not even funny. I mean, when was the last time he's had a game winning hit? [/ QUOTE ] Wasn't the whole concept of clutch thrown out a few years back when a study showed that being clutch (hitting well with runners on base) was just variance? For instance, the most 'clutch' hitter one year would invariably find himself in the middle of the pack the next year. [/ QUOTE ] I don't care if it is hard to find, it exists see Edgar Renteria [/ QUOTE ] Your example of clutch hitting is a guy who sucks? [/ QUOTE ]
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#64
05-04-2006, 05:44 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the difference between Honus/A-Rod is bigger than Ted/Barry. [/ QUOTE ] Really? Wagner: .327/.391/.466, career OPS+ of 150 ARod: .307/.385/.577, career OPS+ of 145 You're much more studious about the game than I am. I'd like to hear more on this. [/ QUOTE ] Honus's numbers include his decline phase, and has 4000 more PA than A-Rod. Bonds' OPS+ is 184 to Ted's 190, but he's done it in more playing time against better players, with better defense, better stolen bases, and better ways of cheating. [/ QUOTE ] You seem fairly willing to write off the accusations that Bonds' records are illegitimate by saying that lots of other players and pitchers used steroids, but if that is true, why is Bonds' sicksick run in his thirties so unparalleled? Of course he was a top player of all time before his juicing, but all of the stuff in the second leg of his career is just totally fake. What other players have done stuff like that? Sure some pitchers have also gotten help from it, but I don't see how anyone could maintain that Bonds is playing on a level playing ground.
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#65
05-04-2006, 05:44 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] the difference between Honus/A-Rod is bigger than Ted/Barry. [/ QUOTE ] Really? Wagner: .327/.391/.466, career OPS+ of 150 ARod: .307/.385/.577, career OPS+ of 145 You're much more studious about the game than I am. I'd like to hear more on this. [/ QUOTE ] Honus's numbers include his decline phase, and has 4000 more PA than A-Rod. Bonds' OPS+ is 184 to Ted's 190, but he's done it in more playing time against better players, with better defense, better stolen bases, and better ways of cheating. [/ QUOTE ] Again, if you're so smart, prove that Bonds cheated. I'm waiting. EDIT: Unless you are just saying that people cheated more and with better technology in this era, which is true. But I'm sick of people accusing Bonds of using steroids and cheating despite absolutely 0 conclusive evidence to back it up. [/ QUOTE ] I'm Barrys biggest fan in the world, but I'll have to admit to a 'very high probability' that Barry used Steroids for a few years. He was one of many, however. The greater question is how can we be sure that the past greats would not have taken advantage of this 'chemical' resources if they had played today. Also of some dispute is just how much steroids are an aid to performance. People have a mistaken notion that hitting home runs is all about upper body strength - not so. Shoot, not another Barry Bonds hijack. Sorry guys.
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#66
05-04-2006, 05:45 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
Of course he was a top player of all time before his juicing, but all of the stuff in the second leg of his career is just totally fake. [/ QUOTE ] Prove it. [ QUOTE ] What other players have done stuff like that? [/ QUOTE ] This is not conclusive evidence. Prove to me that Bonds used steroids. Just because he has stats that eclipse everyone you have ever seen play the game does not mean he is cheating. What is so hard to understand about that?
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#67
05-04-2006, 05:47 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
I'm Barrys biggest fan in the world, but I'll have to admit to a 'very high probability' that Barry used Steroids for a few years. He was one of many, however. The greater question is how can we be sure that the past greats would not have taken advantage of this 'chemical' resources if they had played today. Also of some dispute is just how much steroids are an aid to performance. People have a mistaken notion that hitting home runs is all about upper body strength - not so. Shoot, not another Barry Bonds hijack. Sorry guys. [/ QUOTE ] I agree that Bonds has a high probability of using banned substances, but we don't equate high possibility = certainty. People are innocent until proven guilty in this country, which Bonds has not been to this day. Also of note - steroids don't let you see the ball better and exercise some of the best plate discipline any hitter has in the MLB currently.
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#68
05-04-2006, 05:51 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
you mean other his grand jury testimony that he used steroids?
edit: ruth cheated, too: he used a cork bat.
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#69
05-04-2006, 05:52 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
[ QUOTE ]
you mean despite his grand jury testimony that he used steroids? [/ QUOTE ] That he also testified that he didn't know were steroids? As an aside, I love how the leaked grand jury testimony is being looked at despite no one trying to figure out who leaked it. Seems fair.
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#70
05-04-2006, 05:52 PM
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Re: jeter overrated? say it ain\'t so?
Jeter had a few years in the late 90s where he was a great player. He has become a merely good player most years since then.
Think of it this way. Would you rather have Tejada or Jeter? You would be a fool to pick Jeter, but I best most average sports fans would. These "intangibles" he has are a result of being on great teams and people giving him those labels. In short, Jeter is overrated by the average fan, but it is not his fault. I also don't believe he is the most overrated player in baseball.
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