Baseball managers are vastly overrated

[MicroBob]

mo42 - that I agree with. Football is definitely a sport in which strategy decisions are botched pretty badly.

My belief is that even in light of all the obvious mistakes that get ripped on in baseball, there are a lot of decisions that aren't even understood that they mostly do get right where a lot of the casual fan just thinks they are sitting around trying to look grumpy.

You and kyleb make some good points. And as I said, I'm flexible to the idea that I'm perhaps giving these guys way too much credit for being more critical than they really are.
But for now I will continue to think that doing it well is a LOT more difficult than a lot of you guys make it out to be.

[Jack of Arcades]

It's probably just that the strategy part of managing is much less important than the other parts.

[Mondogarage]

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It's probably just that the strategy part of managing is much less important than the other parts.

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[tdarko]

mo,

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if they have such great insight why cant Joe Torre see every single pitch wang throws in a playoff game is belt high up and when hes iup in the zone he gets roped?

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He does see this, what is your point?

Torre or Guidry could have or did tell Wang that his weight was leaking forward not allowing his arm to catch up which wasn't allowing him to get on top of the baseball when he was throwing it--which is vital for a sinker baller, if a sinker baller isn't on top of the ball he can't use the seams, the ball is up and straight. He is probably leaking forward b/c of adrenaline or trying to do too much b/c of the situation or whatever, you don't know the reason...the point is that he may have been told to correct that mechanical flaw but it is DAMN HARD to load into your hip and correct that in a playoff game w/ thousands and thousands of screaming fans (loud ass stadium) and hitters that are having fist fights at the bat rack and your confidence is slowly going down more and more w/ each pitch. It is much much tougher than you think and it isn't Torre's fault that Wang was belt high every pitch--OF COURSE HE SAW THIS...some of you in this thread seriously make me wonder sometimes.

[vhawk01]

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It's probably just that the strategy part of managing is much less important than the other parts.

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Much less important to the manager, much less important to the FO, sure. But is it much less important to winning ballgames? Hard to say. I'm sure its at least theoretically possible to quantify the effects that this off-field stuff has on winning but I'd imagine its EXTREMELY difficult and complicated and I'm almost sure that its never been done. So, I wont dismiss your point, you are probably correct, but its very difficult to decide how to weight that aspect of the game. What we CAN (fairly) accurately measure is how their on-field decisions impact winning ballgames. And it isnt that flattering for the most part.

[RedBean]

Earl Weaver's book on baseball strategy, while outdated, does give some interesting insights into what all is involved in managing a team, particulary the difference between managing a team in the context of a single game on gameday, as opposed to the "real work" of managing a team over the course of an entire season.

I'd recommend the book to anyone interested in gaining some insight. Several managers draw heavily from it still to this day, and I'm willing to bet many of them have it on the desk in their office.

In my opinion, managing is more about managing ego's, and relaying decisions to 25 different players without upsetting the collective balance of moral in a clubhouse, etc, as well as managing the coaches in order to improve/correct finite technical stuff, and managing the media in being able to "keep control of the team", etc...etc..

In short, the only real break they usuaully get is once the game starts, and they are back to work as soon as it ends.

Definately nothing that just anyone would be suited for, and definately not something you would want to do for 75k once you walk a mile in the shoes for a few days.

As for SABR geeks being suited for the role, not even close, as it has hardly anything to do with the strategy of the game....that's on the bench coaches just like in football it is primarily on the coordinators.

The manager, for the most part, manages the team....he doesn't coach anything, although there are several exceptions depending on the person.

Overall, I've always said some slick-talking people person who had basic baseball knowledge and was surrounded by a sharp bench staff would make a great manager, if they could get past the problems with them not coming up as a member of the baseball fraternity, which probably couldn't happen so easily.

If I was hiring managers tomorrow, I'd take Tony Robbins over any stathead if I were choosing a non-baseball person, but I'd ultimately take Bobby Cox over
anyone. Period.

And that is even given that Cox does practically nothing between the first pitch and the last out, aside from occasionally run onto the field kicking and screaming.

[mo42nyy]

[ QUOTE ]
mo,

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if they have such great insight why cant Joe Torre see every single pitch wang throws in a playoff game is belt high up and when hes iup in the zone he gets roped?

[/ QUOTE ]

He does see this, what is your point?

Torre or Guidry could have or did tell Wang that his weight was leaking forward not allowing his arm to catch up which wasn't allowing him to get on top of the baseball when he was throwing it--which is vital for a sinker baller, if a sinker baller isn't on top of the ball he can't use the seams, the ball is up and straight. He is probably leaking forward b/c of adrenaline or trying to do too much b/c of the situation or whatever, you don't know the reason...the point is that he may have been told to correct that mechanical flaw but it is DAMN HARD to load into your hip and correct that in a playoff game w/ thousands and thousands of screaming fans (loud ass stadium) and hitters that are having fist fights at the bat rack and your confidence is slowly going down more and more w/ each pitch. It is much much tougher than you think and it isn't Torre's fault that Wang was belt high every pitch--OF COURSE HE SAW THIS...some of you in this thread seriously make me wonder sometimes.

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wow so what your saying is he sees that wang is leaving the ball up and tells him to correct his mechanics (which as you say won't work because theres thpusands watching at its a playoff game blah blah- this part i agree with)

So your solution to that is to leave him in the game to get shitpelted and give your team no shot to win- brilliant.
And i make you wonder-good one.

I agree its not torres fualt wang got roped- its his fault he was left in the game forever. They probably wouldve lost that game anyway. However coupled with leaving wang in game one for so long and the complete joke that was torre managing game 2 and i find it hilarious that people question whether or not it matters who your manager is.

[UATrewqaz]

When it comes to coaches (or in this case managers) importance in major sports, baseball is by far the least and football is by far the most, particularly college football.

I'd be surprised if too many people disagreed.

[areyouthedrizzle]

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When it comes to coaches (or in this case managers) importance in major sports, baseball is by far the least and football is by far the most, particularly college football.

I'd be surprised if too many people disagreed.

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Yeah I agree. Football coaches are BY FAR the most important out of any sport, but coaching in the NFL is just as important as college football imo. Basketball coaches are also pretty important as far as teaching the game and the getting most out of what they have to work with.

Being a baseball manager is a joke. I could have led the Red Sox to the WS this year. I really cant understand why the media glorifies managers so much and why they get all the credit when they win and take all the blame when they lose.

[MicroBob]

"I could have led the Red Sox to the WS this year."


No.