My turn for a weightlifting/fitness thread

[TxRedMan]

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you're missing my point entirely.

i'm not saying that squatting isn't helpful to a vertical leap.


i'm saying that heavy squatting isn't.


allow me to clarify-

heavy squatting = failure achieved in under 5 repetitions. so on your fifth rep, you must have assistance. that's what i call heavy squatting.

in my OP i reccomended high capacity strength training. squatting for very high repetitions is something that not many people do and are fairly unfamiliar with the results, but from my experience and the experience of others it is an excellent foundation from which to build on and it in itself is a superb way to increase strength.

but i stand by my point- a routine to increase vertical leap that centers around the idea that squatting heavy (by all definitions squatting heavy is max weight for low reps) is going to be the chief exercise in accomplishing that goal is incorrect.

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You don't have to go to failure when lifting heavy weights. That's probably better too when one might not have perfect form in a potentially dangerous exercise.

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have you read this thread?

i advocated OP not do heavy squats to begin his program. therefore i agree that lifting heavy w/o perfect form is dangerous.

also, *heavy* is different from one person to the next. if i'm bench pressing 315, that's not heavy for me, but for most people it's likely to be more than they could lift.

(not a thinly veiled brag)

heavy weight is a weight that you can do <5 times


furthermore, i challenge anyone in this thread to actually attempt to do a leg workout that consists of:

a light warmup

4 sets of 25 on squats where you're at near failure at the end of your sets.

4 sets of leg press doing the same amount of reps, reaching near failure at the end of the set.

4 sets of heavy hamstring curls.

4 sets of 50 on a calf raise machine.


what all of you are failing to realize (btw- has anyone here EVER heard of Tom Platz?) is that there is more than one way to get strong. legs have a tremendous capacity for endurance.

the LOL about this whole arguement is that not a single one of you has ever done a leg routine like i mentioned above, and therefore are making statements based on assumption. and you seemingly neglect the fact that telling abeginner to squat heavy (which by all definitions has to include sets of 3-5 reps to failure) which is insane.

i advocate that OP squat heavy, but not right now. at the beginning of his program he needs to learn form and movement and exhaust his legs through high repetition sets. i can assure each and everyone of you that sqautting for sets of 20-25 reps will make you stronger.

i've trained numerous individuals using this principle and i learned it from some of the best bodybuilders in Texas.

btw- helpful advice to those of you who want to increase your squat:

when i was powerlifting regularly early in my career, my squat had plateaued. i was stuck squatting 5 plates for sets of 3 in my workouts. i was squatting somewhere around 550 when i decided i was going to adjust my training. for three months i quit going over 405 pounds. my squat sessions consisted of a thorough warmup up to 405, then i would do three sets w/ 405 till failure. when i started, i was sqautting 405 for sets of 10. just a belt, no wraps, hitting the bottom w/o assistance. by the end of the three months i was doing 3 sets of 20 reps with 405. after that period i went back to heavy weights and within two weeks of working back to a max lift i squatted 615 i believe. i also increased the endurance in my legs tenfold, and added size and shape to them. they really grew during those three months.

the point is- high rep squats will make your squat stronger, and they will give you a sick amount of endurance.

also, after i broke my ankle i couldn't squat or deadlift for over a year. i lost a ton of muscle mass in my legs. i've been training legs again for the last six months and i can say w/o a doubt that for someone w/ an ankle injury, squatting isn't a good exercise.

edit: i had been lifting heavy so when i switched to high rep sets my body was 'shocked' so to speak, but i really wish i had began my leg development with high rep squats.

i challenge each and everyone of you to abandon your current leg workouts and honestly spend 3 months doing very high repetition squats and leg presses and see if your max squat doesn't increase significantly as well as your vertical leap.


edit again: plz keep in mind that when i think of someone telling OP to squat heavy and increase his squat i'm going to assume that you mean a powerlifting regimen designed to increase single repetition strength alone. that is my default mentality if you don't provide details. and i think we can all agree that this approach would be stupid for OP.

i want to reitterate again, that if any of you actually take the time to hit legs 2x/week like i mentioned above, you will see tremendous gains

[TxRedMan]

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TxRedMan,

Wow. You are really flooring me with your lack of basic knowledge. Maybe you should work out some short of linear periodization also since nothing major has changed in the last 20 years of weight training.

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when arnold compiled his encyclopedia of bodybuilding, very little was left to be said.

answer me this:

why was kobe dunking the ball in high school when he was skinny and probably couldnt squat 300 LBS, and yet now that he can squat 400 LBS he's not jumping over Nowitizki's head when he dunks?

vertical leap is about form, timing, and explosion.

i reccomend that after OP trains like i reccomended for the first six weeks, he start to incorporate heavier sets into his program and really work on explosion at the bottom of a rep. i'd also throw in negatives, have him walkking around w/ ankle weights on all day, and have him super setting his truly heavy squats.

also, plz understand that i want OP to go heavy- as heavy as he can go for 25 reps. i'm not advocating putting 135 on the bar and doing 25 reps like a warmup. i want him hitting failure at 25 reps.

whatever.

there's more than one way to grow and get strong.

[guids]

Tx,

At least for me, I never said your routine was bad, Ive done something like you posted, not 20 reps, but 15 reps, squat, walking lunge, glute/ham raise, one legged ski squats, and I have no doubt that it works, becuase it does, it makes me want to puke (I do them in a circuit, with 2 muntes rest between circuits). What I am telling you is that the OP would benefit from 6 months of heavy powerlifting to get him a good solid base, so he can work on form, and get a good solid strength base. When I say heavy, yes, of course i mean heavy for him, under 5 reps etc. Its just my opinion that if he doesnt work on increasing his 1RM squat-wise, he will have to do your routine with a broomstick becuase he doesnt have any brute power.

[Thremp]

Anything you can do for 25 reps in not heavy. I don't care if its a cement truck.

Kobe and co. have some of the worst levers on the planet for squatting. I'd be surprised if his ups haven't increased from his high school days as he got stronger. Keep in mind there is diminishing marginal utility with strength. The last pound isn't as important as the first pound WRT dynamic exercises.

Arnold's book is outdated. Almost any strength coach will say that nowadays. His methods are great for very advanced trainees juiced out of their gourds. Beginner training is light years beyond 25 sets per muscle group per week in 1 workout. It has also moved beyond the linear periodization of add weight and cut a rep each week until you max and then repeat. Both of those methods work, but aren't optimal. I suggest reading some literature written in the last decade.

There is more than one way to get strong. Your way is long, complicated and not based in reality. Jumping rope for example is a fine motor skill that loses a vast amount of its aerobic benefit as you become more adept at it. Your calves aren't an integral part of jumping otherwise you'd see commercials where Kobe is doing heavy donkey calf raises instead of squats w/chains.


Side thought: I have not looked into this, but doing your static holds at the knee flexion you most often use to jump seems like it'd have more benefits over other angles. Engrish: Like how some people generate a lot of hop with little knee bend. Find out how much you bend your knee and do you isometrics at that level.

[EricW]

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TxRedMan,

Wow. You are really flooring me with your lack of basic knowledge. Maybe you should work out some short of linear periodization also since nothing major has changed in the last 20 years of weight training.

[/ QUOTE ]

when arnold compiled his encyclopedia of bodybuilding, very little was left to be said.

answer me this:

why was kobe dunking the ball in high school when he was skinny and probably couldnt squat 300 LBS, and yet now that he can squat 400 LBS he's not jumping over Nowitizki's head when he dunks?

vertical leap is about form, timing, and explosion.

i reccomend that after OP trains like i reccomended for the first six weeks, he start to incorporate heavier sets into his program and really work on explosion at the bottom of a rep. i'd also throw in negatives, have him walkking around w/ ankle weights on all day, and have him super setting his truly heavy squats.

also, plz understand that i want OP to go heavy- as heavy as he can go for 25 reps. i'm not advocating putting 135 on the bar and doing 25 reps like a warmup. i want him hitting failure at 25 reps.

whatever.

there's more than one way to grow and get strong.

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ok, tx, no offense man, but if you're going to support Arnold's book, then you don't really know much about training. His book is not based on science. It's based on Weider [censored]. Anybook that calls for a natural to train with upwards to 50 sets/body part and talks about isolating different parts of the bicep is [censored].

Also, I don't know if Kobe and Jordan squatted as much as guids has been saying, but the NBA players are strong as hell. When I was in high school, I helped run a provincial, senior boys b-ball championship at the Vancouver Grizzlies training facility. I was able to break into their training room and in there, there was a board that listed all their reps for certain lifts. I distinctly remember that most of the guys were strong as hell. Bryon Scott had a 1 rep max for bench press of something like 300 or 400 pounds (pretty sure it was 400).

[EricW]

Also, tx, training with really high reps will NOT get you strong. YOu said it will build endurance but yet you said that they will also get you strong. Reps that high will build mainly endurance because it is the type II, slow twitch muscle fibres that are worked (these muscle fibres are endurance type muscle fibres whose primary function is endurance functions)

[SomethingClever]

All,

Disturbing news. I just measured my vertical.

I probably wasn't warmed up enough... and I was wearing jeans and horrible shoes... and I could only measure it from a standstill off both legs (I jump higher off one leg and on the run, obv).... but it was......

20.5"

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I guess the good news is that there's room for improvement. My pathetic 20.5" vertical was enough to put my fingertips over the rim, however, so if I can get to 30" I should be a regular Dominique out there.

[cardsharkk04]

Its no standstill, but damn
jump

[TxRedMan]

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Also, tx, training with really high reps will NOT get you strong. YOu said it will build endurance but yet you said that they will also get you strong. Reps that high will build mainly endurance because it is the type II, slow twitch muscle fibres that are worked (these muscle fibres are endurance type muscle fibres whose primary function is endurance functions)

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you're a [censored] tool.

lol @ everything you just said.

hey numbnuts, i'm speaking from experience as a power lifter and personal trainer.


you're a [censored] idiot.

LMAO post pics of yourself, plz.

[TxRedMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Anything you can do for 25 reps in not heavy. I don't care if its a cement truck.

Kobe and co. have some of the worst levers on the planet for squatting. I'd be surprised if his ups haven't increased from his high school days as he got stronger. Keep in mind there is diminishing marginal utility with strength. The last pound isn't as important as the first pound WRT dynamic exercises.

Arnold's book is outdated. Almost any strength coach will say that nowadays. His methods are great for very advanced trainees juiced out of their gourds. Beginner training is light years beyond 25 sets per muscle group per week in 1 workout. It has also moved beyond the linear periodization of add weight and cut a rep each week until you max and then repeat. Both of those methods work, but aren't optimal. I suggest reading some literature written in the last decade.

There is more than one way to get strong. Your way is long, complicated and not based in reality. Jumping rope for example is a fine motor skill that loses a vast amount of its aerobic benefit as you become more adept at it. Your calves aren't an integral part of jumping otherwise you'd see commercials where Kobe is doing heavy donkey calf raises instead of squats w/chains.


Side thought: I have not looked into this, but doing your static holds at the knee flexion you most often use to jump seems like it'd have more benefits over other angles. Engrish: Like how some people generate a lot of hop with little knee bend. Find out how much you bend your knee and do you isometrics at that level.

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did it ever occur to you that the reason you see kobe doing squats w/ chains in commericals is just that, a commercial, for commercial appeal?

lol if you think kobe's in the gym doing legs this week using squats w/ chains.