DVD Discussion: Before Sunrise

[Dominic]

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Do you think Jesse would leave his wife to come live with Celine in Paris? Is it the right thing for him to do, given that he found his love?

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Doubtful. Just because he tells Celine that he and his wife are like friends running a daycare now does not necessarily mean it's true.

If, in fact, he is really out of love with his wife then maybe...but you also have children involved now. What kind of father would move to France and leave his child behind? Jesse doesn't seem to be that flighty.

So...unless Celine moves to the States, I don't see them together.

Sorry Katy!

[thecincykiddo]

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Do you think Jesse would leave his wife to come live with Celine in Paris? Is it the right thing for him to do, given that he found his love?

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Doubtful. Just because he tells Celine that he and his wife are like friends running a daycare now does not necessarily mean it's true.

If, in fact, he is really out of love with his wife then maybe...but you also have children involved now. What kind of father would move to France and leave his child behind? Jesse doesn't seem to be that flighty.

So...unless Celine moves to the States, I don't see them together.

Sorry Katy!

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Because of that ending, because of that moment where he's reminded of his dancing little girl who he wants to protect in a moment she could get hurt, because of that second in the car where Jesse tells her that she can't live life being afraid of being hurt... He doesn't know, beyond that moment.

All he knows is that he doesn't want to leave. She could be getting hurt in two days, two months, two years...it's a mystery. And I like it that way. I think Jesse wouldn't be any kind of man -- and not much of a writer, for that matter -- if he doesn't surrender himself to the truth that no one can see the future any more than you can control the past. That, to me, is the whole beauty of the second film.

[Dominic]

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Do you think Jesse would leave his wife to come live with Celine in Paris? Is it the right thing for him to do, given that he found his love?

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Doubtful. Just because he tells Celine that he and his wife are like friends running a daycare now does not necessarily mean it's true.

If, in fact, he is really out of love with his wife then maybe...but you also have children involved now. What kind of father would move to France and leave his child behind? Jesse doesn't seem to be that flighty.

So...unless Celine moves to the States, I don't see them together.

Sorry Katy!

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Because of that ending, because of that moment where he's reminded of his dancing little girl who he wants to protect in a moment she could get hurt, because of that second in the car where Jesse tells her that she can't live life being afraid of being hurt... He doesn't know, beyond that moment.

All he knows is that he doesn't want to leave. She could be getting hurt in two days, two months, two years...it's a mystery. And I like it that way. I think Jesse wouldn't be any kind of man -- and not much of a writer, for that matter -- if he doesn't surrender himself to the truth that no one can see the future any more than you can control the past. That, to me, is the whole beauty of the second film.

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Well, that's the point, isn't it? Is "true love" meaningless if it can't last a lifetime - or even a month?

[thecincykiddo]

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Do you think Jesse would leave his wife to come live with Celine in Paris? Is it the right thing for him to do, given that he found his love?

[/ QUOTE ]

Doubtful. Just because he tells Celine that he and his wife are like friends running a daycare now does not necessarily mean it's true.

If, in fact, he is really out of love with his wife then maybe...but you also have children involved now. What kind of father would move to France and leave his child behind? Jesse doesn't seem to be that flighty.

So...unless Celine moves to the States, I don't see them together.

Sorry Katy!

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of that ending, because of that moment where he's reminded of his dancing little girl who he wants to protect in a moment she could get hurt, because of that second in the car where Jesse tells her that she can't live life being afraid of being hurt... He doesn't know, beyond that moment.

All he knows is that he doesn't want to leave. She could be getting hurt in two days, two months, two years...it's a mystery. And I like it that way. I think Jesse wouldn't be any kind of man -- and not much of a writer, for that matter -- if he doesn't surrender himself to the truth that no one can see the future any more than you can control the past. That, to me, is the whole beauty of the second film.

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Well, that's the point, isn't it? Is "true love" meaningless if it can't last a lifetime - or even a month?

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I'm not sure what you're arguing; I don't think we're in disagreement on anything except that i don't think he knows enough vis-a-vis Linklater's writing for any real judgment to be made on whether or not he leaves his wife. Hell, it's not even important. The real thing is this moment Linklater has crafted, which by your reasoning is the whole point.

If that's all you're saying then Vive True Love.

But Katy's asking if it's the right thing to do...in that case, I'd have to say he kind of owes it to Celine and to love and to himself to do what he feels is right. No one can live a half life forever anyway. I don't think there's anything in the dialogue to even remotely suggest that he's lying about his uninvolvement with his wife, though. If anything, he's just sort of waking up to the void he's been carrying around while writing this novel and playing house.

Maybe earmuffs for those who haven't seen Sunset yet: One of my favorite things about this film is that ending song. A lot of filmmakers would have tried to extract or implant the final meaning of the film with a song like that, but instead the man picked a song that added nuance and resonance to a resolution that's really just as teetering as it is for Jesse as it is for Celine.

That's what I like to think of as using music as something other than a crutch.

[Enrique]

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I don't think there's anything in the dialogue to even remotely suggest that he's lying about his uninvolvement with his wife, though.

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People lie in real life. The movie feels real. The movie doesn't show evidence in either direction (involved with wife, not involved with wife), hence it could be a lie. If Jesse wants Celine at that moment and wants her to feel loved by him, then it would make sense to say that he is uninvolved with his wife. He might even believe it at that instant because Celine is the only thing important in his life. But people often lie in those circumstances. A classical lie that happens all the time is the "I will divorce my wife" lie. A lot of women get into an affair with the illusion that the guy will leave his wife. Hopefully Celine won't be one of those (I mean, I hope she gets her moments with Jesse, but not with the illusion of forever love or something that Jesse won't deliver).

[katyseagull]

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If Jesse wants Celine at that moment and wants her to feel loved by him, then it would make sense to say that he is uninvolved with his wife. He might even believe it at that instant because Celine is the only thing important in his life. But people often lie in those circumstances. A classical lie that happens all the time is the "I will divorce my wife" lie. A lot of women get into an affair with the illusion that the guy will leave his wife.

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I don't believe Jesse was lying about this. I would be sort of shocked if any man lied about this [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. men are pretty damn truthful.

But Jesse and Celine aren't lying to each other. They are totally open and pouring their hearts out. If Jesse loved his wife he would have confided that. He would have said he was torn.

[katyseagull]

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If, in fact, he is really out of love with his wife then maybe...but you also have children involved now. What kind of father would move to France and leave his child behind? Jesse doesn't seem to be that flighty.

So...unless Celine moves to the States, I don't see them together.

Sorry Katy!

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I agree. Celine should move to the states.

The question of whether Jesse owes it to himself to split with his wife is interesting to me. Should a man stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids? I've been telling people that they most definitely should for as long as I can remember but after seeing these two films (oddly enough) I find myself actually considering the other point of view [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Let's say he stays with his wife and keeps his integrity. At the end of his life will he be glad he did it? Will he look back on his entire past and say it was the right thing to do? Or will he look back and say - yeah, that was pretty stupid. I should have gotten out when I was young and started a new life, free of that girl. In the end, do grown kids even appreciate that you sacrificed your own happiness for them?

(i guess this probably would be better off as it's own thread.)

[thecincykiddo]

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If, in fact, he is really out of love with his wife then maybe...but you also have children involved now. What kind of father would move to France and leave his child behind? Jesse doesn't seem to be that flighty.

So...unless Celine moves to the States, I don't see them together.

Sorry Katy!

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I agree. Celine should move to the states.

The question of whether Jesse owes it to himself to split with his wife is interesting to me. Should a man stay in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids? I've been telling people that they most definitely should for as long as I can remember but after seeing these two films (oddly enough) I find myself actually considering the other point of view [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

Let's say he stays with his wife and keeps his integrity. At the end of his life will he be glad he did it? Will he look back on his entire past and say it was the right thing to do? Or will he look back and say - yeah, that was pretty stupid. I should have gotten out when I was young and started a new life, free of that girl. In the end, do grown kids even appreciate that you sacrificed your own happiness for them?

(i guess this probably would be better off as it's own thread.)

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Could be. It seems we have at least 3 different threads raveling here -- your question of what's right, enrique and dom's fantasies about Celine and Jesse as real people rather than film characters, and film analysis and interpretation.

I feel the need to say, though, that regardless of whether you feel like he keeps his integrity by staying with his wife or by leaving her to join Celine, there's absolutely no integrity in him lying to her about anything important. That makes the last nine years of his life a fraud, and what we then get is character implosion. So that doesn't work.

[katyseagull]

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I feel the need to say, though, that regardless of whether you feel like he keeps his integrity by staying with his wife or by leaving her to join Celine, there's absolutely no integrity in him lying to her about anything important. That makes the last nine years of his life a fraud, and what we then get is character implosion. So that doesn't work.

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Agree. Well put.

[Dominic]

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I feel the need to say, though, that regardless of whether you feel like he keeps his integrity by staying with his wife or by leaving her to join Celine, there's absolutely no integrity in him lying to her about anything important. That makes the last nine years of his life a fraud, and what we then get is character implosion. So that doesn't work.

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Agree. Well put.

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I disagree. I'm not saying Jesse is lying, all I'm saying is that's it's possible he's not being entirely truthful with Celine about his relationship with his wife. And why should he be? Let's pretend the movie is real life for a moment: if Jesse was a miserable in his marriage as he says he is don't you think he would leave? But marriages are complicated - one day you love the other person and the next you want to kill her!

Remember, Jesse's two days with Celine are his fantasy days - the days where all is right with the world and his life is perfect. But even as his marriage might not be as awful as he says it is, neither is his relationship with Celine as perfect as he hopes it is. It's romance, it's wishful thinking, it's hope. Jesse's not lying in either case, he's just doing what we all do - putting a spin on his life - the good and the bad. The truth is always clouded by our emotions.

Do they have a future together? I hope so. It's possible...but like life, it's complicated!