Why The Dude Converted

[Banks2334]

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Those are examples to me of the guiding hand and presence.

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Origami,
Thanks for taking the time to give a couple of examples. Personally, I don't see it the way you do, but if it works for you and your wife, then that's all that matters.

[entertainme]

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Alobar is not a Christian but he has really hit the nail on the head here and introduced an incredibly salient point to the discussion. To quote, "You either feel God's touch or you don't."

Even Christians often refer to what we have in our lives as religion but in reality religion is just a set of rituals and such that often confuse and mess up the real thing that is going on - a personal and ongoing relationship with God.

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Having engaged in this relationship it's inconceivable that I would one day read a book and suddenly say "God doesn't exist". I could conceive of becoming very angry at God and rejecting His presence in my life but an intellectual rejection of His existence? I don't think so.

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I don't often discuss my faith on 2p2 because of the ridicule. I became a christian as an adult, (statistically it's much more likely to happen in your youth.)

I agree with the above. For me it comes down to personal relationship. The specific events aren't important. There was no special words or specific prayer. It came down to a change of heart, followed to my surprise by a presence in my life that I couldn't deny.

He became more real to me than I am.

I can't imagine trying to maintain my faith on an intellectual basis alone. It would be akin to maintaining a marriage without intimacy.

Just a point of curiosity Dude, have you ever read Evidence That Demands a Verdict?

My best wishes to you and your family. I was already married when my heart changed so I have some reference point to how this can affect a relationship.

The Poker Mom

[odellthurman]

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This is not what I expected at all.
I thought you where going to explain why you told your wife about all this and put your mariage in danger because of atheism.

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I would be very interested in this as well. The answer is really none of my or anyone else's business, but you are being very open here.

[NLSoldier]

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Without derailing this discussion I can tell you that I feel religion is one of the worst things currently plaguing humanity (any religion) and I would be happiest if it somehow "went away".

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have you read anything by marx or any projection theory of religion guys? some make a pretty strong argument that even if religion is 100% BS it still serves important functions in most societies (namely to subdue to lower class into accepting their status in exchange for the promise of the afterlife). places lilke the middle east that are so violently divided on religion could very well be better off, but i think you would be really surprised by the societal changes that would occur if relgion dissapeared in a country like america.

[tdarko]

I am surprised the afterlife and death hasn't been brought up.

[jackdaniels]

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Without derailing this discussion I can tell you that I feel religion is one of the worst things currently plaguing humanity (any religion) and I would be happiest if it somehow "went away".

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have you read anything by marx or any projection theory of religion guys? some make a pretty strong argument that even if religion is 100% BS it still serves important functions in most societies (namely to subdue to lower class into accepting their status in exchange for the promise of the afterlife). places lilke the middle east that are so violently divided on religion could very well be better off, but i think you would be really surprised by the societal changes that would occur if relgion dissapeared in a country like america.

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I didn't read any of the stuff you quoted as it pertains to religion specifically (Marx, etc..), though I see how Marx would make that assumption considering the rest of his ideas.

In my quest to understand religion I learned that religion is nothing more than a philosophy cloaked in mysticism as a way to:

1. Explain natural occurances for which current science has no explanation.
2. Provide a carrot/stick for following certain codes of moral conduct.

Since philosophy (a code of moral behaviour) is a GOOD thing, I would say that religion was a good thing in its early years, when man didn't have a better alternative.

TODAY, the situation is different. Man does not need a mystical carrot or stick to be moral (we have education and other tools that accomplish the same without the bad parts). I am reading the Atheist and Kids thread in OOT and the discussion goes beyond having children (and in fact, includes some of the ideas we are trading here).

[Subfallen]

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Or it could further evidence wonderful design

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LOL, yes I suppose it's just a coincidence that >90% of scientists are atheists.

[The Dude]

All,

Okay, I was late for work yesterday in trying to get this post finished before I left, and during my whole shift I kept thinking "man, I need to go back and make a more thorough explanation of the 'Ultimate 747 Argument.'" This morning I finally got a chance to read through some of the thread before my wife and I left for our first counseling session, and you guys talked me out of explaining further.

Some common responses that I disagree with wholeheartedly:
- Faith has nothing to do with intellect
- God is not subject to reason
- We are too intellectually inferior to even try and understand God, or to explore reasons why he may or may not exist

That seems to be the majority of posters in this thread, and the ones who don't buy into any one of those don't seem to need me to explain more, so I really don't see the point.

[The Dude]

One thing I would like to add, though. I don't think enough theists (or agnostics, for that matter) really grasp how subjective "personal experience" is when it comes to God. Even as a Christian I never used that as a firm point when discussing God's existence, because 1) I can't possibly expect others to take my personal experience at face value, and it's very clear that many people in this world never have something that seems like a personal experience (I even know Christians who say they have never really felt God), and 2) the diversity of people's spiritual experiences around this world are universally self-contradicting. Why should anybody believe my personal experience is more likely genuine than somebody else's? (By "genuine" I mean, "not a self-deception or a delusion.")

[Shadowrun]

how did the counseling session go?