**Official** uNL Microbrew Thread - October

[Grunch]

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But when you play like a nit, you have to fold like a nit .... that is fundamental!

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Should I maybe loosen up a bit PF? I realize this is a recipe for disaster if my post-flop play isn't solid, but I really hate passive play which is why I cbet 90% of the time and fire a 2nd barrel when I have TP or better on a turn that isn't too scary. Perhaps I should check behind more often (obv this is dependent upon the situation)?

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Thing, here's what I'd suggest you do right now. Focus on big pots exclusively. Don't try to fix every problem in the world all at once, go at them one at a time. So it makes sense to fix the biggest ones first, and those are always the mistakes you make on the turn & river in big pots.

Here's what I do after ever session. Sort all the games I played in PT by net won & lost. I do an EV analysis on every hand where I either won or lose > 50 BBs.

This reveals many interesting things to me. For one thing, it exposes fundamental errors I make postflop. Things like miscounting my pot odds, etc. Basic strategy. But the surprising thing is this is a fraction of the interesting things I find. I have found more leaks in my game by doing the "big pot" analysis than I ever knew I had. And I don't mean things related only to big pots, I mean leaks all over. Things like tilt control. Hand reading errors. Estimating equity given a read. Figuring out the correct play bases on my equity. Everything that can be a mistake is a mistake in big pots, too.

[Gelford]

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[Student Caine]

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Gelford, you are probably right about this. Just looking at other (winning) players' stats in the past, I've noticed that I'm tighter PF and more aggressive post-flop, which I found to be odd. I probably need to tone down my aggression a bit and focus more on pot control.

One odd thing I noticed about my stats is that way back before my downswing (when I was winning) early this year when I was still transitioning from limit to NL (both 6max), I was more of an 18/13 player. Looking at the positional stats, it's clear that I was playing more hands in UTG and MP, and probably the same amount of hands in the CO and BTN.

As I learned, I tightened up significantly in the earlier positions but kept a similar game on the CO and BTN. This obviously gave me nitty PF stats, but at the same time, should have put me in a better position to win money. I'm not sure what my point is here, but it's an observation I just had.

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I have been thinking about something for a while, but I am not totally sure how correct it is, so take it for what it is worth.

I believe that as we move up the ladder to greatness one of the biggest stumbling points that we all hit is how to play the turn (i.e., turn aggression). I see the PT stats for winning players and their Turn AF is like damn near even with their flop aggression. But when I try to get there I spew like a mad junket.

I think that we as "accomplished apprentices" or "budding journeyman" players do a reasonably good job with our preflop and postflop play (though I think some of us, myself included, have a slight issue with not understanding the full impact of how preflop and postflop play are interrelated), and we really kind of fall on our face on the turn. I am amazed at how many players, even in the mid stakes, that I see with a flop AF of 3.00+ and a turn AF of 1.00-...with a cbet % of 80%+ and a tcbet % of 30%-

Turn aggression is key, but the trick becomes knowing how and when to be aggressive and I think it is more crucial than say flop aggression because the bets and pots are so much larger at this point that we stand to win/lose more
on the Turn.

What is really strange to me is that most books that I have read spend a lot of time talking about preflop and postflop play and then say "the turn and river play themselves" or "by now you know where you are..." almost taking a fit or fold approach that they warned us not to take on the flop. Maybe this is correct, or maybe the game has evolved to a point where the bulk of the players have solid pre and post flop play so now the turn is crucial...I really do not know.

I really don't know how to help you fix the turn aggression because I don't have it figured out myself, but I think it is a really, really important place to look.

[Genz]

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But when you play like a nit, you have to fold like a nit .... that is fundamental!

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Should I maybe loosen up a bit PF? I realize this is a recipe for disaster if my post-flop play isn't solid, but I really hate passive play which is why I cbet 90% of the time and fire a 2nd barrel when I have TP or better on a turn that isn't too scary. Perhaps I should check behind more often (obv this is dependent upon the situation)?

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A general problem that nits have is, that they get married to their hands too much and feel pressured to make a profit, i.e. take a pot down or see a SD, with them. Since you need to wait a pretty long time to get that AK, AQ, KQs, TT, w/e, you don't want to let go of it. And since you don't hit a made hand on a safe board very often you need to fire a lot of barrels to push people out of pots. Against other nits that might work, against the fish who overplay their hands, this is desastrous. One thing I learned from loosening up in late position preflop was being way more relaxed about AK etc. and coming to the point of being able to just lay it down without a 2nd thought easily.

Cliff notes: You might cling to your strong preflop hands too much.

[Grunch]

The turn and river almost never play themselves. At least, they shouldn't.

[Genz]

Grunch, could you do me a favor and go back into the KK post with the terrible line? I feel like I messed up with my first reply and would like to know if I got it right with the 2nd try. I really feel like I try to let people bet my for me way too much recently. So I need to get that fixed.

[Student Caine]

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Cliff notes: You might cling to your strong preflop hands too much.

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"Professor Petrovksy" syndrome. I went through a lame stint after watching Rounders, where I waited for strong hands and then couldn't be blown off of them with dynamite because of that stupid scene where Mike McDermott tells Professor Petrovsky to wait for big hands and then play them aggressively.

Sadly enough this is not the stupidest thing I have ever done. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[Genz]

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The turn and river almost never play themselves. At least, they shouldn't.

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Well, you can buy in with a stack size that makes the turn pretty straightforward. As I learned from PNL, the 100BB max buyin is actually pretty awkward in a lot of 6max situations where you need to decide if you want to play a big pot with a marginal hand. I still buy in for full most of the time. But if someone has huge leaks playing the turn, he might want to buy in shorter and play more hit-or-miss poker until he resolves his issues.

[Grunch]

You're right, I was thinking of 100bb+ poker.

[thing85]

There really is some excellent advice in this thread and I'm thrilled about what I'm reading (because some of it is things that I haven't thought a whole lot about). I might put off analyzing my PT stats (using Pokey's guide) per Grunch's suggestion, and because I don't know if that's going to get me on the right path.

One random side note I'd like to make with regard to the 2+2 strategy cliches (like "don't be results-oriented") is "don't focus on pre-flop; post flop is where money is won and lost." This discussion really highlights the fact that, while yes, post-flop is more important, pre-flop decisions set up the hand - your post-flop play simply magnifies your pre-flop decision (for good or bad).

If loosening up a bit pre-flop allows you play more comfortably post flop (i.e. stops you from going too far with a particular hand), then this pre-flop nuance is significant to your success. If playing tight marries you to your strong hands, then it's going to hurt your post-flop play (this is really just paraphrasing what Genz said). All in all, pre-flop seems to be VERY significant because of the way it affects your post-flop play and results.