New Fight Question

[Smasharoo]

Honestly I don't think the short guys like Tyson can compete on the championship stage anymore.

Short old washed up guys like Tyson? 20 year old tyson has considerably less trouble winning today than he did then.

[Hume]

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Rambo

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lololol [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[BCPVP]

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No, of course not, but between two very simmilar sports, yes.

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They're similar in some ways, but very different in other ways and those differences matter as to how those in each sport train. Can you at least agree that the rules of the game dictate to a large extent how the competitor trains? You would agree that if elbows, knees, takedowns, and submissions were allowed in boxing that it wouldn't be the same as it is right now, wouldn't you? You can actually see a difference between Pride and UFC because of even slight variations of rules (Pride allows you to stomp on a downed opponent where the UFC does not, but UFC allows elbows that are not allowed in Pride. Also the difference between a cage versus a ring favors certain strategies, like GnP against the cage).

And I hope that you don't think I'm knocking boxers or boxing. I'm not. Just about everyone in MMA trains in boxing because it's essential to being a great fighter. But there are other dimensions. The clinch is radically different in boxing than it is in MMA. There's the added dimension of the ground game and all that goes with that (submissions, ground and pound, avoiding takedowns).

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I was joking.

I have boxed though, and competed in full contact martial arts competitions, but not direct equivilents to UFC.

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Great. No wonder you're so dismissive of grappling. I'm still curious as to how you think a boxer with very little or no takedown defense should handle a shooting grappler.

[shilohisadog]

The advantage the best SOF person (H2H combat and SEAL for this discussion) has is his training, coupled with experience.

He sets out on a mission knowing that every waking and sleeping moment, there are enemies around him that will kill him, without hesitation. He is deployed to goodness knows where; a jungle, a desert, swamp, "deserted" city, with intel that tells him, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that behind any bunker, tree, building, whatever, the enemy might be, poised to kill him, by whatever means necessary. The SOF person lives this, days and weeks on end, sleeping with one eye open, and performing the task at hand.

The UFC/MMA person trains extensively and completely for a championship fight. He wakes up that morning ready to do battle. He wins the fight. Whats he do the next morning? Room service? The SOF person has no such luxury, he wakes up in the morning, eats whatever rations he has left, always concerned that the enemy has their eye on him.

A bit melodramatic, maybe.

The question posed was, with the physical advantage in H2H combat that the UFC/MMA person has over the SOF person, how much does the mental part factor into the decision? I would venture the mental part (SEAL training and deployment) would "make up for" a 20% lesser physical ability.

Where is the line between ~20% lesser physical ability, between UFC/MMA personX, than the top ranked UFC/MMA person?

I would say that someone within the ranking range of 10-15, coupled with SOF training and deployment would kill _anyone_ given the rules of this challenge.

siad

ps. yea, strange first post, but w/e.

[Blarg]

I think we're getting too theoretical here. Sometimes you just get beaten to the punch, or shoot. Happens. Even if you're among the best 1% in the world, there's still always someone better than you, or who just has a bit of luck well within the expected possibilities for such things. I don't think having to eat frogs in the jungle plays into it much.

[MuresanForMVP]

this guy has proved time and time again that he's an idiot, who has no appreciation for any other arts. I am NOT an MMA fanboy, as a matter of fact I'm in the USMC and will be given my chance to try out for the Marine equivalent of the SEALs in due time. However, I can understand the different skills that go into being the elite UFC/MMA/Pride fighter, and objectively understand that in a hand to hand fight it is most likely that they would be the victors. But you are just so completely blind to the facts that it's unbearable to read. Great,they make more money, who gives a damn? they punch hard, so what? what happens when one fighter is getting pummelled in a boxing match? he grabs onto the other guy so the ref can back em up. But guess what happens if the elite MMA fighter gets in that close and grabs him? he takes his ass to the ground and proceeds to completely destroy the boxer. Fights aren't boxing matches, you don't dance around for half an hour like fairies, jabbing one another. You get BRUTAL and take the guy down, then use ground fighting/grappling skills to submit, or in this case kill the other guy. Your lack of understanding as to what goes into real life-and-death fighting is phenomenal. with each post you look like a bigger [censored], so you should just quit.

-I can't wait to see what kind of one line response he has for me now.

[MuresanForMVP]

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I think we're getting too theoretical here. Sometimes you just get beaten to the punch, or shoot. Happens. Even if you're among the best 1% in the world, there's still always someone better than you, or who just has a bit of luck well within the expected possibilities for such things. I don't think having to eat frogs in the jungle plays into it much.

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I think the "mental" aspect he noted is why I put the SpecOps troops as the "wild card". because we just don't know who the hardest/best/most effective SEAL, or what have you, is right now. But we do know who the "best" MMA/UFC guy is as well as the "best" boxer correct? To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the "best" H2H SEAL came in and completely annihilated the competition. But then again I wouldn't be very surprised if he put up a decent fight but lost to someone who dedicates their life to all forms of H2H fighting. That's why I put the MMA guy as the most LIKELY victor. But I just don't understand how someone like Smasharoo can so firmly believe that the boxer would definitely win.

[BCPVP]

I agree with this. I have a much tougher time thinking about who's the likely second best. "Asian martial artist" is so vague. I'd guess that overall, the best "fighters" would probably be the hardcore Muay Thai guys. But there are others with good skills; like judo/jujitsu's ground skills or some of kung fu's quickness. If the asian martial artist wants to stand toe to toe with the boxer, I think the boxer's the favorite.

The SEAL is a tough call. It kind depends on what training he's had and how often he's been able to use it. H2H isn't the highest on the list for SEAL's for practical reasons; it takes time away from training for more likely scenarios. But he's probably going to be very smart about the fight and if there's anything remotely useful as a weapon nearby (I know the OP said no weapons), the SEAL's probably a big favorite.

I have little hope for the street fighter. He has probably had no formal training and has had to learn by the seat of his pants. He also probably hasn't gotten himself into situations where he'll be outnumbered and probably uses a weapon more often than not. He also doesn't usually face trained opponents.

[DeadMoney_J]

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I would say that someone within the ranking range of 10-15, coupled with SOF training and deployment would kill _anyone_ given the rules of this challenge.


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I can certainly understand the logic being said here. As myself and others have discussed, H2H combat is very different from being in an enviroment governed by rules. I know that in my limited MMA training, I discovered that even when simulating a "realworld" situation that often times someone who was superior to me in capability/size would still allow me the oppurtunity to get close enough to his throat or other vital area with my mouth to where I'd be able to icapaciatate through a bite in which I'd rip out an artery or other similar critical component of his body (this is just one example).

Point being that even if the MMAer only had a marginal to somewhat decent skill advantage over the SEAL, I believe that the SEAL would have a very strong chance of coming out the victor due to the mental advantage that I believe he'd posses. However, I don't see this being the case. If it's an active duty operator, it's hard enough between real-world operational commitments, training/MQT reqs, and personal issues which have to be taken care of to stay on top of everything, much less being able to train to the level of a world-class MMAer.

Now if we change the situation and say something to the extent of the two fighters are placed "X miles" apart on an island and are allowed to use their enviroment in any way to kill the other, then let's just say that my vote is no longer for the MMAer.

[MuresanForMVP]

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I would say that someone within the ranking range of 10-15, coupled with SOF training and deployment would kill _anyone_ given the rules of this challenge.


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I can certainly understand the logic being said here. As myself and others have discussed, H2H combat is very different from being in an enviroment governed by rules. I know that in my limited MMA training, I discovered that even when simulating a "realworld" situation that often times someone who was superior to me in capability/size would still allow me the oppurtunity to get close enough to his throat or other vital area with my mouth to where I'd be able to icapaciatate through a bite in which I'd rip out an artery or other similar critical component of his body (this is just one example).

Point being that even if the MMAer only had a marginal to somewhat decent skill advantage over the SEAL, I believe that the SEAL would have a very strong chance of coming out the victor due to the mental advantage that I believe he'd posses. However, I don't see this being the case. If it's an active duty operator, it's hard enough between real-world operational commitments, training/MQT reqs, and personal issues which have to be taken care of to stay on top of everything, much less being able to train to the level of a world-class MMAer.

Now if we change the situation and say something to the extent of the two fighters are placed "X miles" apart on an island and are allowed to use their enviroment in any way to kill the other, then let's just say that my vote is no longer for the MMAer.

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QFT, and another thing I was thinking about. There is an entire aspect of the H2H military training regimen dedicated to "weapons of opportunity". Straight hand-to-hand, with no weapons, tips the balance in favor of the other fighters. If the two fighters were placed in any other environment (bar,battlefield, jungle, etc) and were allowed to utilize these weapons then I pick the Spec Ops guy every time.