Some Stuff About PUA (very long)

[bkholdem]

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It's hilarious how the haters keep making up strawmen and calling people 'sheep' for listening to the advice that guys who struggle to talk to women should:

1) be an interesting/exciting person while being congruent with your self, and

2) dress in an attractive/stylish manner, and

3) have interesting things to say, and be able to carry on a conversation with a woman or group of people you just met.

These are not 'gimmicks,' not tricks, and not about flashing cash - no matter how many times retards say it is.

Girls want to, practically have a biological need to, talk with guys so they can decide if they are physically and/or emotionally interested in them.

Most women at a bar or club are single, and looking for a fun time that includes some level of physical interaction with the right guy. And many of the ones that 'have a boyfriend' are as well.

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Agreed. But then they play the "morality" card. I made a post a couple of pages ago about that, and how you can learn this stuff while being true to yourself. I was really really interested in what OP would respond to that. Alas, no dice.

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The morally superior man who stays at home alone jacking off in bed fantasizing about having actual sex with women and then complains on the internet about the guys who are having actual sex with women.

Nice Guy AKA chump AKA women's 'friend' AKA the woman's emotional tampon (who she goes and complains to about the guys she is banging when they do something that excities but also upsets her). They when she is finished using mr. nice guy AKA emotional tampon by dumping her emotional baggage on him she goes back to sexing the PUA.

[guids]

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It's hilarious how the haters keep making up strawmen and calling people 'sheep' for listening to the advice that guys who struggle to talk to women should:

1) be an interesting/exciting person while being congruent with your self, and

2) dress in an attractive/stylish manner, and

3) have interesting things to say, and be able to carry on a conversation with a woman or group of people you just met.

These are not 'gimmicks,' not tricks, and not about flashing cash - no matter how many times retards say it is.

Girls want to, practically have a biological need to, talk with guys so they can decide if they are physically and/or emotionally interested in them.

Most women at a bar or club are single, and looking for a fun time that includes some level of physical interaction with the right guy. And many of the ones that 'have a boyfriend' are as well.

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Agreed. But then they play the "morality" card. I made a post a couple of pages ago about that, and how you can learn this stuff while being true to yourself. I was really really interested in what OP would respond to that. Alas, no dice.

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The morally superior man who stays at home alone jacking off in bed fantasizing about having actual sex with women and then complains on the internet about the guys who are having actual sex with women.

Nice Guy AKA chump AKA women's 'friend' AKA the woman's emotional tampon (who she goes and complains to about the guys she is banging when they do something that excities but also upsets her). They when she is finished using mr. nice guy AKA emotional tampon by dumping her emotional baggage on him she goes back to sexing the PUA.

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You guys seem to be just as retarded as teh guys who think PUAs are sleaze balls.

[Anacardo]

Here are my remaining thoughts on this subject, in a series of excitingly punchy bullets.

- The PUA-related ideas in this thread can be split into two broad categories - ideas on self-actualization and self-presentation, and ideas on social interaction / men & women generally.

- Starting with the former, it's very difficult to find fault with what boils down to being your best self. The only objection might be that concentrating all time / effort on your own self-fulfillment leaves none for others, but that's a strawman; just don't.

- There is nothing incompatible about being an upright, decent fella and having a strong, healthy body, or a sharp sense of style, or an extroverted, gregarious personality, or polished conversation, etc. etc. Obviously you can take or leave whatever you want of these.

- I have some critical comments re: all this stuff about carefully micromanaging one's image and 'being congruent within yourself,' etc., but they're not really ethical, just aesthetic. I personally detest facades. I don't like people who seem too smooth or practiced or whose stories are too seamless. The things that make people (girls or whoever else) stand out to me are usually their quirks, contradictions, odd-seeming habits or personality features - anything that makes them seem 'human' or complicated, and therefore interesting. The people who give the impression of having checked themselves in a mirror to make sure they're baller enough or sufficiently in-line with their chosen subculture or whatever are pretty dull.

- Turning to the stuff about men / women / what happens when they get together: You guys are LOL. Take that blanket list of 'what the PUA knows' about women that DrewDevil posted earlier. That [censored] reads like a KKK pamphlet about the Nigra Menace - just a pastiche of exaggerated stereotypes. I'm sure the ladies could get together and scribble out something about as unflattering and about as fair. Many of them are half-truths or based on something real, like most stereotypes, but I've never known a woman who was all of them - an emotional / sexual masochist AND a nagging shrew who secretly wants to lose AND completely superficial AND completely illogical AND lacking all self-awareness, etc. etc.

- As for the repeated claim that, hey, this is what they're like - I really can't offer an expert opinion. I've known some women that remind me of that list, and most of them are insufferable, girls I had either no interest in to begin with or cooled off on real fast. I haven't gotten to know THAT many women well, and I probably haven't met a representative slice of Earth's female population. Therefore I'm prepared to listen to the hypothesis that many, perhaps even the simple majority, of women are mostly like what DD is saying. My answer to that is that everybody else can have 'em, with my blessing. I don't want 'em, so I'm glad for their sakes that somebody else does.

- A lot of the stuff you guys are trying to interpret as evolutionary biology probably has a strong cultural basis, too. The idea of what a 'real man' is changes from culture to culture and age to age; in the Victorian era, for example, manhood was synonymous with self-restraint, a 'stiff upper lip' and the ability to provide. This is the Age of Baller, and our idealized images have changed accordingly. Plus, a lot of these traits - selfish egoism, complete disregard for the feelings / opinions of others, willingness to move on at the slightest provocation, etc etc., seem like lousy traits for providers & fathers, which makes a purely evolutionary explanation problematic.


- BK's point about 'emotional tampons' is well taken. Women, some more than others, do tend to use men for emotional / financial security, just as men, some more than others, tend to use women for sex. Common sense, self-respect and a little experience will easily keep you out of either situation, for the most part.

- PUA is a very sales-oriented set of ideas, and it's definitely presented that way by many of its advocates in this thread. Lots and lots of the usual fallacies - You're With Us Or You're Doomed, answering questions with absurd counterquestions, plays to fear and ego, and a lot of [censored] generally.

- So does any of this stuff have any basis in reality? Yes. Are people actually like this? We all are to some extent. Some of us absolutely are to the fullest extent. This is all pretty primal, animalistic, lowest-common-denominator stuff. The difference is, I look at this stuff, try to see it for what it is, and laugh at it. The dumb-animal parts of my makeup mostly just annoy me, though they can also be fun, and I'll never be rid of them, and I wouldn't choose to be rid of them even if I could. Some of you guys, on the other hand, really seem to revel in this [censored], and I think that's kinda sad / hilarious. But you go your way, and I'll go mine.

[Alamo]

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You guys seem to be just as retarded as teh guys who think PUAs are sleaze balls.

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Looking at this comment, I cannot help but to think pot/kettle.

It really caught my attention that you seem to like to come off as superior in this whole PUA-discussion, being the natural that you seemingly without a single doubt in your mind are, but apart from some cheap shots, and judging people that you really don't know, based on your own undoubtedly superior values, I haven't seen you actually going into *why* we seem to be so retarded.

What BK says makes a hell of a lot of sense to me, and maybe we retards have an advantage over you, something that seems to never have occured to you.

Looking at BK's post, he actually studied social interaction, group psychology and female psychology. Hell, maybe he even was on the receiving end of the things he described, being the emotional tampon for some girl he wanted for himself. I know that I was.

And I know I studied the things that he is talking about, and made big changes to my life.

I learned how the real world works, as opposed to the stuff my parents taught me, society taught me, and the movies taught me. Factors not to be underestimated, as you get exposed to them every single day.

So I started doing things differently, learned some really valuable life-lessons, was able to explain why past relationships failed, started working out and took boxing classes and learned to fight. I improved and reinvented myself.

One thing that learning PUA material and the more profound material teaches you is to look up and into the world, as opposed to rigidly sticking to one's own views. It teaches you you might be wrong in your own convictions.

Not really a fun time, as you come to understand that a lot of what you believed in was false. That can make, depending on the person, for some pretty heavy times. I myself still sometimes feel that I understand stuff I really would not have liked to know.

Yet, I am so glad that I went through this process. It helped me to cure a depression by fighting the fights I had to fight to overcome said depression, as opposed to drugging myself with Prozac and whatnot and live the rest of my life hiding instead of fighting.

This is what PUA learned me, to go for what I want, to fight my battles, to live exactly the way I want to live, to appreciate, yet be critical of others and myself, and to not to judge too fast.

How this makes me retarded is beyond me, but I am sure you have pretty good reasons. After all, you seem to be great at life.

As you stated a couple of days before, it seems hilarious to you that people pay to learn this stuff (which was directed to me, showing you jumped to conclusions, but as said, you seem pretty convinced that you are right, cos... well...after all it is YOU, guids, that is thinking this, how could you possibly be wrong? Right? That is the impression you give, fwiw).

To me it is hilarious that you seem to be unable to step back and see things from a distance, as opposed to rigidly sticking to your own views on things, in the meantime not appreciating that everybody has it's own reality, and we are not all born as the natural that you in your own mind seemingly are.

However, disdaining people that try to improve themselves is not what a real natural would do, because a real natural would appreciate the effort that people make to better themselves, recognizing the sometimes huge mental leaps and tenacity this obviously takes.

So it might be useful to concentrate on yourself, you come off as pretty good at it anyway, and ask yourself if you are really as cool as you seem to think you are.

If, after that, you wish to have a mature and constructive discussion about the do's and don'ts regarding PUA, I will be happy to discuss with you, until that time I remain with my pot and kettle.

[traz]

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- A lot of the stuff you guys are trying to interpret as evolutionary biology probably has a strong cultural basis, too. The idea of what a 'real man' is changes from culture to culture and age to age; in the Victorian era, for example, manhood was synonymous with self-restraint, a 'stiff upper lip' and the ability to provide. This is the Age of Baller, and our idealized images have changed accordingly. Plus, a lot of these traits - selfish egoism, complete disregard for the feelings / opinions of others, willingness to move on at the slightest provocation, etc etc., seem like lousy traits for providers & fathers, which makes a purely evolutionary explanation problematic.




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This paragraph is very indicative of 2 things.

a) You misunderstand just about every aspect of PUA
b) You have not been listening to what many people have been saying in this mess of a thread

It's really a waste trying to talk to you about it and I think it's really stupid for you to make a thread and then completely ignore all relevant points made. You've done more pointless arguing than you have discussing the topic of the thread.

Which leads me to believe you don't want to discuss it at all, so I'm not sure wtf you were doing starting a thread in the first place.

[Anacardo]

Dude, GTFO. Read what people actually say. You can act like PUA is just an awesome life-affirming set of ideas about becoming the best Traz you can be, or whatever, and maybe in some ways it is, but if you're denying that that other stuff is mixed in there too you're fooling yourself.

EDIT: On another note, I have some exciting new reading projects!

[traz]

If you talk to anyone who knows a lick about PUA, he'll tell you that being alpha is about being self-restrained, controlled, and being a provider.

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selfish egoism, complete disregard for the feelings / opinions of others, willingness to move on at the slightest provocation, etc etc., seem like lousy traits for providers & fathers, which makes a purely evolutionary explanation problematic.

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This little passage is so ridiculously biased, and people have been saying this entire thread that these AREN'T PUA traits. These may be traits of some Pick-Up Artists, but they are not PUA traits. Understand the difference.

You're applying your biased observations to everything PUA, and it's so wrong. ANd when people TELL you it's wrong, you don't listen. So again why start the thread?

[Anacardo]

So being a PUA is by definition about being the absolute best at everything in every way? Is there a single positive adjective you would not attach to PUA, and a single negative one that you would?

[Alamo]

[ QUOTE ]
Here are my remaining thoughts on this subject, in a series of excitingly punchy bullets.

- The PUA-related ideas in this thread can be split into two broad categories - ideas on self-actualization and self-presentation, and ideas on social interaction / men & women generally.

- Starting with the former, it's very difficult to find fault with what boils down to being your best self. The only objection might be that concentrating all time / effort on your own self-fulfillment leaves none for others, but that's a strawman; just don't.

- There is nothing incompatible about being an upright, decent fella and having a strong, healthy body, or a sharp sense of style, or an extroverted, gregarious personality, or polished conversation, etc. etc. Obviously you can take or leave whatever you want of these.

- I have some critical comments re: all this stuff about carefully micromanaging one's image and 'being congruent within yourself,' etc., but they're not really ethical, just aesthetic. I personally detest facades. I don't like people who seem too smooth or practiced or whose stories are too seamless. The things that make people (girls or whoever else) stand out to me are usually their quirks, contradictions, odd-seeming habits or personality features - anything that makes them seem 'human' or complicated, and therefore interesting. The people who give the impression of having checked themselves in a mirror to make sure they're baller enough or sufficiently in-line with their chosen subculture or whatever are pretty dull.

- Turning to the stuff about men / women / what happens when they get together: You guys are LOL. Take that blanket list of 'what the PUA knows' about women that DrewDevil posted earlier. That [censored] reads like a KKK pamphlet about the Nigra Menace - just a pastiche of exaggerated stereotypes. I'm sure the ladies could get together and scribble out something about as unflattering and about as fair. Many of them are half-truths or based on something real, like most stereotypes, but I've never known a woman who was all of them - an emotional / sexual masochist AND a nagging shrew who secretly wants to lose AND completely superficial AND completely illogical AND lacking all self-awareness, etc. etc.

- As for the repeated claim that, hey, this is what they're like - I really can't offer an expert opinion. I've known some women that remind me of that list, and most of them are insufferable, girls I had either no interest in to begin with or cooled off on real fast. I haven't gotten to know THAT many women well, and I probably haven't met a representative slice of Earth's female population. Therefore I'm prepared to listen to the hypothesis that many, perhaps even the simple majority, of women are mostly like what DD is saying. My answer to that is that everybody else can have 'em, with my blessing. I don't want 'em, so I'm glad for their sakes that somebody else does.

- A lot of the stuff you guys are trying to interpret as evolutionary biology probably has a strong cultural basis, too. The idea of what a 'real man' is changes from culture to culture and age to age; in the Victorian era, for example, manhood was synonymous with self-restraint, a 'stiff upper lip' and the ability to provide. This is the Age of Baller, and our idealized images have changed accordingly. Plus, a lot of these traits - selfish egoism, complete disregard for the feelings / opinions of others, willingness to move on at the slightest provocation, etc etc., seem like lousy traits for providers & fathers, which makes a purely evolutionary explanation problematic.


- BK's point about 'emotional tampons' is well taken. Women, some more than others, do tend to use men for emotional / financial security, just as men, some more than others, tend to use women for sex. Common sense, self-respect and a little experience will easily keep you out of either situation, for the most part.

- PUA is a very sales-oriented set of ideas, and it's definitely presented that way by many of its advocates in this thread. Lots and lots of the usual fallacies - You're With Us Or You're Doomed, answering questions with absurd counterquestions, plays to fear and ego, and a lot of [censored] generally.

- So does any of this stuff have any basis in reality? Yes. Are people actually like this? We all are to some extent. Some of us absolutely are to the fullest extent. This is all pretty primal, animalistic, lowest-common-denominator stuff. The difference is, I look at this stuff, try to see it for what it is, and laugh at it. The dumb-animal parts of my makeup mostly just annoy me, though they can also be fun, and I'll never be rid of them, and I wouldn't choose to be rid of them even if I could. Some of you guys, on the other hand, really seem to revel in this [censored], and I think that's kinda sad / hilarious. But you go your way, and I'll go mine.

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Cardo, you make a lot of valid points in your post, and you seem to have given in some profound thoughts.

I can appreciate everything you say really, and agree on basically all points, me being from the PUA camp.

I dunno, maybe it is because I am older than these young kids trying to learn some PUA gimmicks and taking off with it on some mysogynistic around the world tour, I know it is something I never have done, and I do appreciate the uniqueness of each human being, not ignoring the fact that from my own personal experiences, some stereotypes being used by the PUA community are simply spot on.
Yet, others are not, I will give you that immediately, and to break down complex human beings to machines that will produce output x 100% of the time input Z is being used is very very simplistic.

However, I like think a lot of these stereotypes are being used to actually explain a concept that is far deeper than said stereotypes, and that said stereotypes only are a starting point to get to understand these deeper concepts.

However, if you take these stereotypes as the destination as opposed to the road to said destination, I think you make a big mistake if you want to really learn about these things.

Human nature I guess, a lot of people are looking for the quick fix, the instant gratification, and these are the people you have your beef with I guess.

I think you can rest assured however that this simplistic approach will work only so many times, since learning a trick does not require any improvisation and deeper understanding of the concepts, and this will automatically lead to failure in the long run for all the kids that have gone on the mysogynistic tour.

Damn, I really need to look up how to spell that word.

Cardo, do me a favour and read my post a couple of pages back, and tell me if the way I described things in that post appeal to your sense of right and wrong.

[traz]

Can you please point out where I said that? Can you stop making stuff up in your faux reality?

Basic PUA traits are being confident, being a leader, being independent and non-needy, being interesting, being fun. etc etc etc.

Of course they're all positive! Not everyone has them, but every aspiring PUA should strive to have them.

There are techniques to try achieve those traits. But in no way does any PUA material say to be egotistical, to be rude, to be mean, to be agressive, or anything of the sort.

PUA is ALWAYS preaching to be light, fun and to have a good time, but somehow you're twisting it into being an [censored].

Some PUAs might exhibit negative traits, but that's because it's THEM, not beacause PUA says to be a douche. As an analogy, some martial artists are violent but that doesn't mean martial arts says to go pick fights.

All I'm asking is that you have an open and mind and try to distinguish the principles from various individual PUAs. Considering you started the thread, I think you owe it to be open-minded and open to discussion, but you're pretty much the opposite.