Israel's Attack on Lebanon and Hezbollah

[Sniper]

nicky, your POST shows a clear lack of understanding of the geography of the area... specifically how small an area we are talking about here...

The problem I have, is that I believe you know this! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Sniper]

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice issued a statement on Monday morning in Jerusalem urging a comprehensive cease-fire in Lebanon this week ahead of the UN Security Council meeting on Wednesday.

According to Rice, the deal should include a cease-fire, the deployment of an international armed force in southern Lebanon to support the Lebanese Armed Forces, the disarmament of terrorist groups and the deployment of the LAF on the Syrian border in order to prevent the transfer of weapons to terrorist groups from that country.

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Lebanese Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh said in response, "We will not accept any offer before an immediate and complete cease-fire. Rice is giving Olmert more time."

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Justice Minister Haim Ramon said that despite the decision to suspend the air campaign for 48 hours, the war in Lebanon has not ended.

"If the war ends today, it would be a victory for Hizbullah and global terrorism and would have far reaching consequences," he told Army Radio.

Ramon said suspending fire was the right decision. "It would alleviate the political pressure we are currently facing," he said.

[nicky g]

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nicky, your POST shows a clear lack of understanding of the geography of the area... specifically how small an area we are talking about here...

The problem I have, is that I believe you know this! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]

Whereas the southern Lebanese border area is somewhat bigger than the Sahara desert I suppose.

The hypocrisy of people constantly repeating the Hizb Allah human shield refrain while defending the Israeli army placing weapons in a civilian area near the border and allowing children to play with them is just astonishing. "They were just having lunch!" "It's a small place, give them a break!" All excuses that I'm sure would wash well if Hizb Allah was found letting children play with its missiles a few miles from the border.

[2/325Falcon]

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While it may show a condemnable lack of respect for civilian property and while using an abandonned farmhouse would be a lot more appropriate than a mosque, that is far from the same as using human shields.

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Nicky,

I think you're right that using a mosque as an ammo dump or firing position is not the same nor as heinous as using human shields. It is however a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

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places of worship

Acts of hostility towards places of worship in international conflicts are prohibited. Places of worship may not be used in support of the military effort, and they cannot be the objects of reprisals. (Protocol I, Art. 53)

These prohibitions also apply in non-international conflicts. (Protocol II, Art. 16)

If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship is being used to help the military action, then it will be presumed not to be so used. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

Attacks against places of worship are grave breaches against the Geneva Convention. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 4)



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the US does it in Iraq (shortly after the war, 14 protesters were killed by US troops in Fallujah using a school as their local base),

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In the war in 2003 the Iraqi Army used the schools as bases. The US moved in to these schools after kicking the Iraqi Army out. It's not like these buildings were full of kids at any time during the war in 2003.

[Sniper]

Israel must not agree to an immediate cease-fire, but rather expand and strengthen its attacks on Hizbullah, Defense Minister Amir Peretz told an emergency session of the Knesset on Monday.

"We must not agree to a ceasefire that would be implemented immediately," Peretz said at the start of the heated session.

Peretz's speech was frequently interrupted by Arab MKs, many of whom called the Defense Minister a "child killer" and "scoundrel." Three Arab MKs were eventually ejected from the session, as Knesset Speaker Dalia Itzik said she was giving them the "gift" of an ejection from the Knesset.

Aside from the Arab Party members, however, Peretz's speech was widely echoed by MKs across the spectrum including Opposition Leader Binyamin Netanyahu who added that Hizbullah posed a strategic threat, and therefore required a strategic victory.

"The journey of war is like any other journey. It starts easily but midway there's a difficult junction where we must decide whether we continue to climb the mountain or stop," said Netanyahu. "I call on the government: Don't stop midway. Complete the job."

Netanyahu recounted that during World War II, Britain's Royal Air Force intended to bomb the Gestapo headquarters in Copenhagen, but missed and hit a children's hospital nearby, killing 83 Danish children.

"This is a tragedy of war, but it happens," said Netanyahu. "Unlike the other side, which rejoices when our children are killed, we are truly sorry when it happens, and we really and truly try to reduce casualties on the other side."

[Sniper]

The debate over the establishment of a multi-national force to quell the violence in Lebanon, was postponed by the UN on Monday until an unspecified later date.

The UN will not convene on the matter "until the political picture in the region becomes clear," said a UN official.

[Sniper]

US President George W. Bush called on Iran and Syria on Monday to stop supporting Hizbullah and terror, reiterating that America was interested in a "sustainable peace" in the region.

Bush added that the current conflict was a part of a larger conflict between radical Islam and the Western world, and that the US was interested in promoting democracy in the Middle East.

[heater]

Another story about Hezbollah fighting from heavily-populated civilian areas.

Hezbollah outsmarts Nicky again

[nicky g]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While it may show a condemnable lack of respect for civilian property and while using an abandonned farmhouse would be a lot more appropriate than a mosque, that is far from the same as using human shields.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicky,

I think you're right that using a mosque as an ammo dump or firing position is not the same nor as heinous as using human shields. It is however a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

[ QUOTE ]
places of worship

Acts of hostility towards places of worship in international conflicts are prohibited. Places of worship may not be used in support of the military effort, and they cannot be the objects of reprisals. (Protocol I, Art. 53)

These prohibitions also apply in non-international conflicts. (Protocol II, Art. 16)

If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship is being used to help the military action, then it will be presumed not to be so used. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

Attacks against places of worship are grave breaches against the Geneva Convention. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 4)



[/ QUOTE ]



[ QUOTE ]
the US does it in Iraq (shortly after the war, 14 protesters were killed by US troops in Fallujah using a school as their local base),

[/ QUOTE ]

In the war in 2003 the Iraqi Army used the schools as bases. The US moved in to these schools after kicking the Iraqi Army out. It's not like these buildings were full of kids at any time during the war in 2003.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't realise it was in violation of the Geneva conventions. In that case, I condemn it all the more forcefully, if the story is true. But as we both agree, it is not at all the same as using civilians as human shields.

On the school thing, I did not and did not intend to imply that there were chldren near the school at the time. My point is simply that all armies, including the US and Israeli, use civilian infrastructure to house/shelter troops etc, and that doing so again is not the same as using human shields if the civilians are not using it at the time.

[nicky g]

[ QUOTE ]
Another story about Hezbollah fighting from heavily-populated civilian areas.

Hezbollah outsmarts Nicky again

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Your caption is unnecessary. I have simply pointed out that noone so far has presented any credible evidence of human shield tactics that are constantly repeated. Now we have one actual photo of weapons being placed in what is apparently a Christian suburb. Well, that's a start, and good find; at least you can be bothered to look for and present evidence, unlike the dozens of others who simply repeat the mantra "Hizballah uses babies as sandbags" over and over. If it is what it puports to be and representative of a wider pattern, then that's damning for Hizb Allah and goes some way to mitigating the proportion of civilian casualties, although far from all the way given their absurdly high number and past Israeli refusals to allow a respite for trapped people to escape, the bombing of hospitals, ambulances and refugee convoys from villages that Israel had just ordered to be evacuated and so on. I'm not quite sure it's up there with the unquestioned fact that the IDF letting children play with weapons of an artillery unit at the border preparing to shell Lebanon either, but it's a start for you guys, at least.