I 4bet with A8s

[pineapple888]

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A8s is teh suck postflop. Committing when an A hits will get you broke more often than not. So you either win a moderate pot or lose a big one. If the 8 hits it's useless. So I guess you are hoping to hit two of your suit which will force you to get ai as a dog in many cases.

Arguing over whether suited one-gappers might be a little better or worse in this spot is irrelevant.

Just fold. So he pwns you one more time, big deal. Find a better spot.

[clowntable]

I'm not good enough to call here with A8s but I understand the argument that is made.
I think it all depends on the villain (ORLY).
0) How light is he cbetting
1) Is he willing to stack off with big pairs on an A high board
2) Is he cbetting agressively or is he playing fit or fold

Also I'd like to see a complete 3bet calling range from someone that suggests calling with A8s here (+ a range we put villain on) since we play range vs range.

[sightless]

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1) If we hit an ace we can comfortably commit to the pot. This idea alone makes it attractive to call.


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I cant comfortably commit to the pot with a8 when an ace flops, because a large majority of the time when that happens we will be dominated

false

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2) Most flops will miss our opponent and when he c-bets, Ace high will me ahead of most of his c-betting range.


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Who cares if you have 8 high or ace high they will have the same showdown value in that spot; when you get to showdown you’re a high will win very little.

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You're totally missing the point.

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oh man id be willing to bet that a large chunk of the time when u get all in with a8 in 3bet pot on a high flop you will be dominated

meh imo you made 2 points, the first one is wrong and teh second one is irrelivant. who cares that ace high is ahead of his cbeting range :/

[Melchiades]

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1) If we hit an ace we can comfortably commit to the pot. This idea alone makes it attractive to call.

2) Most flops will miss our opponent and when he c-bets, Ace high will me ahead of most of his c-betting range.

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Don't like calling with small sc's or one gappers more than you do but these two points needs to be commented on.

1) You may be commited, but should in no way feel comfortable. When we flop an ace and all the money goes in we are [censored] a majority of the time. The value in the ace is when he c-bets his TT-KK and we have the best hand. Most of the time we won't get another bet out of him, but maybe a sneaky valuebet if he really distrusts you.

2) Are you saying you play A8 for showdown value here? You plan on calling his c-bet hoping to check it down?

Also your post in this thread makes me think you vastly overestimate how light people threebet. People don't make a play at you half as often as you think. Just because a guy threebet you 3 times the last 3 orbits doesn't mean he didn't have you crushed all three times. Basically what orange said, folding preflop is solid here and does not make you exploitable. And even if it did, dude is not gonna start repopping ATC anyway. I seriously doubt many of us are capable of playing A8s profitably postflop in this situation. Maybe a MSNL all star in his games can.

[Xanta]

I kinda like calling pre for the reasons speedlimits mentioned. In todays SSNL climate, people 3bet-cbet so much with air that shoving flops where you have like 30% equity against their calling range is verrrrry +EV. A8s is good at this from flush draws, overcards, maybe pairing the 8, etc.

I still dump it pre though, FPS can lick my balls.

[Speedlimits]

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A8s is teh suck postflop. Committing when an A hits will get you broke more often than not. So you either win a moderate pot or lose a big one. If the 8 hits it's useless. So I guess you are hoping to hit two of your suit which will force you to get ai as a dog in many cases.

Arguing over whether suited one-gappers might be a little better or worse in this spot is irrelevant.

Just fold. So he pwns you one more time, big deal. Find a better spot.

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Sure you can just fold. But playing spots like this well is what increases your winrate. Also there are a ton of spots like this so it is not limited to just A8s.

Also all of my statements were made ASSUMING the villain was a light 3 bettor. This is obviously not your standard play vs an unknown

[pineapple888]

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A8s is teh suck postflop. Committing when an A hits will get you broke more often than not. So you either win a moderate pot or lose a big one. If the 8 hits it's useless. So I guess you are hoping to hit two of your suit which will force you to get ai as a dog in many cases.

Arguing over whether suited one-gappers might be a little better or worse in this spot is irrelevant.

Just fold. So he pwns you one more time, big deal. Find a better spot.

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Sure you can just fold. But playing spots like this well is what increases your winrate.

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Maybe. Or maybe it just skyrockets your volatility even if you manage to break even with it. Believe me, I call a ton of 3-bets from regs. But not with A8s.

[Noam Chomsky]

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its not only that we are dominated, its that by calling with this hand we will be extremly difficult position once we see the flop and will put us in a situation where its very hard to play properly

and I do not think a8 plays good vs his range at all

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You never call people light in 3bet pots IP? By not calling this pf you are extremely exploitable. 4betting isn't bad but this hand has value and now it doesn't.



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This is ridiculous. Not calling three bets with A8s makes you 'extremely exploitable'? How exactly?

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Not calling 3bets with less than premium hands makes you exploitable. Especially if we are in position.

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there are tons of non-premium hands that play better two street poker than A8

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Such as?

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any suited connector, non-suited connectors JT+, one gap broadways and one gap suited connectors??

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Yeah don't agree with this at all. You think a hand like 86s suited is better than A8s in a 3bet pot? What is your reasoning behind liking 8 high over Ace high. If it is because you will "hit more flops" then it is a little misguided. The whole allure of calling with Ace high is two fold.

1) If we hit an ace we can comfortably commit to the pot. This idea alone makes it attractive to call.

2) Most flops will miss our opponent and when he c-bets, Ace high will me ahead of most of his c-betting range.

You mentioned suited 1 gappers? You realize hands like these will make 2nd or 3rd pair FAR more often than straight draws right? These hands are exponentially harder to player than Axs hands and will leave you very vulnerable to getting outplayed.

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no, I don't think I'll 'hit more flops' I think that those flops that I do hit are more likely to have missed his bluffing and non-bluffing range than is the case with A8s.

If you think hitting an A with A8 in a three bet pot means that you can 'comfortably commit to the pot' you're either out of touch or playing in much different games than I am. You realize that 97cc has more equity vs your opponents calling range on a A96 board than does A8 right?

A8 hits second or third pair a fair bit of the time as well, cannot possibly flop a two card straight draw and is well behind you're opponents double barreling range or his calling range with often very little to no equity on A high flops.

As for having 'showdown value', that's sort of silly. If you're going to float the flop with A8 it shouldn't be to check it down but to take the pot later vs the same unpaired hands I'm taking the pot from with suited connectors.

With full stacks and three streets of betting connectors can be harder to play than Ax hands but we've got 1/6 of our stack in and generally two streets of betting which doesn't leave a lot of room to get 'outplayed' when in position.

[Dire]

Ummmm... 'comfortably committing' to a pot when the flop comes ace high and you have A8 is going to be spew. When your opponent is willing to play for stacks on an ace high flop, you're usually going to be dead. It's the reason ace high flops are so good for random hands like suited connectors - you can often push your opponent off their hand since they're usually only stacking there with an ace ( and it's usually going to be better than A8 ).

[Dire]

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why not just fold pf?

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YGOS?

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i used to be all into fps and making moves but then i realized its dumb.

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I don't think anybody is talking about this as a typical play? I assume hero had been getting constantly 3-bet by villain or something along those lines. I agree making this play just for the hell of it would be pretty dumb.