JJ vs. thac - NL$100

[djj6835]

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c/c is BY FAR THE BEST LINE.

think of his likely range here and how to best max out value against such range. thac knows we r betting this flop all day and thus calling excaptionally wide. if we bet fold the turn here we r now bluffing while ahead of villians range. this is like burning money.

u check and he bets n e non pair hands here and some smaller pairs as well. he will also likely bet Qx but i doubt he has many combos of Qx here. so imo his range is a few random draws, low pps, and then a few Qx hands.

river could b tough to play if u do this on the turn but it is by far the best line. as for river i would prolly c/c or bet/fold depending on river stuff

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No way. C/F the turn. Villain's range for betting the turn here is going to be mainly bluffs, flushes, and queens. He isn't betting the turn with random underpairs or second pair in this spot.

And somebody else said something about him never having a queen here? Don't know anything about Thac but I'm pretty sure hands like kq and qj are in his range here. Not really sure why they wouldnt be. Flat calling with a hand like qj in this spot is perfectly fine and probably better than 3 betting/folding.

edit: not to mention that if villain is good, he is going to be betting anywhere from half the deck to the entire deck on the river for the times he has air bc hero is basically never getting to the river like this with anything strong.

[bozzer]

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cor,

I agree with xanta

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[EMc]

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[ QUOTE ]
c/c is BY FAR THE BEST LINE.

think of his likely range here and how to best max out value against such range. thac knows we r betting this flop all day and thus calling excaptionally wide. if we bet fold the turn here we r now bluffing while ahead of villians range. this is like burning money.

u check and he bets n e non pair hands here and some smaller pairs as well. he will also likely bet Qx but i doubt he has many combos of Qx here. so imo his range is a few random draws, low pps, and then a few Qx hands.

river could b tough to play if u do this on the turn but it is by far the best line. as for river i would prolly c/c or bet/fold depending on river stuff

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No way. C/F the turn. Villain's range for betting the turn here is going to be mainly bluffs, flushes, and queens. He isn't betting the turn with random underpairs or second pair in this spot.

And somebody else said something about him never having a queen here? Don't know anything about Thac but I'm pretty sure hands like kq and qj are in his range here. Not really sure why they wouldnt be. Flat calling with a hand like qj in this spot is perfectly fine and probably better than 3 betting/folding.

edit: not to mention that if villain is good, he is going to be betting anywhere from half the deck to the entire deck on the river for the times he has air bc hero is basically never getting to the river like this with anything strong.

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You guys are really under-estimating thac. I cant wait till hes unbanned.

To those who are looking to move up to 100, 200nl and beyond, sleep on this, think about it some more.

[Shattered]

This was really interesting. Betting prevents you from being a bigger mistake on the river but is probably the worst option as it allows Thac to play perfectly. It only gets worse if he's capable of raising turn with air despite your bet.

As for check/folding, there's a beautiful graph by Fgators in BBV on what happens when you check/fold here every time. While check/fold is obviously the play against most villains at microstakes, repeatedly doing that against a capable regular every time you have a marginal hand seems to just be begging for him to run over you.

I think that this might be a good spot to bluff catch and just check/call two streets, depending on the river.

[djj6835]

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c/c is BY FAR THE BEST LINE.

think of his likely range here and how to best max out value against such range. thac knows we r betting this flop all day and thus calling excaptionally wide. if we bet fold the turn here we r now bluffing while ahead of villians range. this is like burning money.

u check and he bets n e non pair hands here and some smaller pairs as well. he will also likely bet Qx but i doubt he has many combos of Qx here. so imo his range is a few random draws, low pps, and then a few Qx hands.

river could b tough to play if u do this on the turn but it is by far the best line. as for river i would prolly c/c or bet/fold depending on river stuff


[/ QUOTE ] No way. C/F the turn. Villain's range for betting the turn here is going to be mainly bluffs, flushes, and queens. He isn't betting the turn with random underpairs or second pair in this spot.

And somebody else said something about him never having a queen here? Don't know anything about Thac but I'm pretty sure hands like kq and qj are in his range here. Not really sure why they wouldnt be. Flat calling with a hand like qj in this spot is perfectly fine and probably better than 3 betting/folding.

edit: not to mention that if villain is good, he is going to be betting anywhere from half the deck to the entire deck on the river for the times he has air bc hero is basically never getting to the river like this with anything strong.


[/ QUOTE ] You guys are really under-estimating thac. I cant wait till hes unbanned.

To those who are looking to move up to 100, 200nl and beyond, sleep on this, think about it some more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Underestimating in what way? In that he has air here a lot? That he's turning an underpair into a bluff here a lot? What are your plans for the river if you c/c the turn here?

[corsakh]

I started typing a lengthy post on 3betting ranges but cfb'ed right now and hopefully will do it some time later.

Meanwhile what I am interested in, is please explain on how exactly you are going to get more value from cold calling a CO opening preflop with QJs (given CO is your normal 50NL tag) than you otherwise would with 3betting.

Ok, show me please how to get ANY value cold calling with high cards.

You hit a pair. Oh great. You either win a cbet (at most two streets) or loose half your stack to a better hand or a bluff.

You miss the flop completely. Great, just wasted 4 blinds.

You pick some draw. Straights are nonexistant. You can only pick a flush. Maybe something can work out.

How you gonna float with this hand that has no SD value? What flops your gonna reraise that give you outs vs his calling range? I am completely lost to your game plan.

Now look back at preflop.

Your hand's face value beats his range.
Your implied odds are zero.
You set up metagame (both for AA and defending the button to steal later yourself).

80% of his CO opening range he can not defend with. He can only fold or sometimes rebluff you. But you should not be 3betting this more often this than you do your premium hands anyway so thats hugely EV+ for you.

He can not defend but he can hit the flop. Why loose the opportunity, initiative and let a worse hand hit the flop?

[ama0330]

c/f is ridiculously weak-tight and is bad and wrong etc. Im torn between c/r and c/c but im almost sure that thac cannot have a monster hand here.

one thing that im sure of is that betting this turn is bad. id like to be more articulate but i need to think about it a little more

[corsakh]

Bet/folding is very bad indeed, I am advocating bet / snap calling. If we get called we are often behind. If he raises we are almost always infront.

[ama0330]

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Bet/folding is very bad indeed, I am advocating bet / snap calling. If we get called we are often behind. If he raises we are almost always infront.

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i think its close. with our hand on this board we want our last action to be aggression imo. id rather crai than bet call, because imo our range includes a decent amount of fd's, making it more difficult for him to bluff over the top of us. its sort of a good spot for him to bluff and not a good spot for him to bluff, but i think that a crai is better because we put HIM to the decision and not us.

[ama0330]

^^ worst response ever [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]