Yanks offer job to Girardi

[Franchise 60]

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That said, a lot of those young pitchers suffered severe falloffs and/or injuries this year, notably, Josh Johnson and Scott Olson. How much of that is attributable to overwork in 2006?

Josh Johnson threw 157 innings as a 22 year old in 2006.
Scott Olson threw 180 innings as a 22 year old in 2006.
Ricky Nolasco threw 140 innings as a 23 year old in 2006.

Those numbers seem high to me for their ages.

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Less than half the story. What options did he have? Did the Marlins management provide him with any other pitchers to fill innings? How many pitches per outing? What was the injury history of these pitchers? How well were these pitchers pitching and how good was the bullpen?

Start with those.

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someone posted the stats in another thread but he pitched them in the danger zone (110+ pitches) a lot. doesn't matter what other options you have, you still don't rape what you do have. go tell the GM to call up some other pitchers; i'm sure florida doesn't want to see their future get raped either. be proactive. unless you're a bad manager like girardi.

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And the fact he had a very bad relationship with his owner and gm could have nothing at all to do with him complaining about his pitching options? How do you know he wasn't proactive?

[TMTTR]

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someone posted the stats in another thread but he pitched them in the danger zone (110+ pitches) a lot. doesn't matter what other options you have, you still don't rape what you do have. go tell the GM to call up some other pitchers; i'm sure florida doesn't want to see their future get raped either. be proactive. unless you're a bad manager like girardi.

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It is very late and I need to sleep, but suffice it to say that his disfunctional relationship with the GM in Florida is well documented. It is also fairly well documented that the Owner/GM shouldered most of the blame for the situation. By August, Girardi's requests fell on deaf ears.

Girardi did a very good job with the tools he was provided and in the worst possible political situation for a manager.

[Vyse]

then simply stop pitching your SPs so much and use the bullpen no matter how bad it is. there is NO excuse for ANY manager raping his young pitchers, that is an indefensible crime no matter what situation you are in and is one of the worst things, if not the worst, in baseball strategy to do.

[TMTTR]

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then simply stop pitching your SPs so much and use the bullpen no matter how bad it is. there is NO excuse for ANY manager raping his young pitchers, that is an indefensible crime no matter what situation you are in and is one of the worst things, if not the worst, in baseball strategy to do.

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Until the second week in September, the Marlins were competing for the wild card. They were playing to make the playoffs. No team is sitting two of their top three pitchers in early september if not clearly injured. If they were already out of it, you are right. But they weren't. You play to win the game. And nothing Girardi did was clearly abusive. There are young pitchers who have pitched much more and survived and young pitchers that have pitched far less and thrown their arms out. Very unpredictable.

[Vyse]

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Until the second week in September, the Marlins were competing for the wild card. They were playing to make the playoffs. No team is sitting two of their top three pitchers in early september if not clearly injured. If they were already out of it, you are right. But they weren't. You play to win the game. And nothing Girardi did was clearly abusive. There are young pitchers who have pitched much more and survived and young pitchers that have pitched far less and thrown their arms out. Very unpredictable.

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What's more important: the miniscule chance they had to make the playoffs (miniscule may be overstating it, but I know off my head it wasn't large) or the long-term benefit of the organization not raping the pitchers?

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nd nothing Girardi did was clearly abusive.

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What are you talking about? Based on what we know about injuries and the injury nexus about pitchers etc. etc. it was very abusive. Just because the risk isn't exactly quantifiable and some people make it doesn't make it not an abusive thing to do. If it raises the risk from a 15% baseline to substantially higher, say, 40%, it's abusive. There is also statistical proof that pitchers perform worse in ERA when they throw 110+ pitchers and I wouldn't be surprised to see it carry over from year-to-year and is surely a valid potential reason why Willis flopped this year.

[wisehandpoker]

Vyse, there's very little doubt to my mind that with the question of pitching the youngsters with a slight chance at the wildcard, Loria would have ordered full steam ahead.

[Vyse]

I'm pretty sure it's never a good idea to substantially overtax many a young pitcher just for a shot to win now. It rarely pays off.

I highly doubt the owner is the only / main reason this happened. I partially doubt the ability of Girardi to not do it again, but it's giving him way too much of a clean skate to not say he did a horrible job nonetheless. So what then, is Girardi a caricature of the front office or what? I don't get it.

I don't get why we pay any attention to managers. We should pay like <1%. So whatever.

[CharlieDontSurf]

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Until the second week in September, the Marlins were competing for the wild card. They were playing to make the playoffs. No team is sitting two of their top three pitchers in early september if not clearly injured. If they were already out of it, you are right. But they weren't. You play to win the game. And nothing Girardi did was clearly abusive. There are young pitchers who have pitched much more and survived and young pitchers that have pitched far less and thrown their arms out. Very unpredictable.

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What's more important: the miniscule chance they had to make the playoffs (miniscule may be overstating it, but I know off my head it wasn't large) or the long-term benefit of the organization not raping the pitchers?

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nd nothing Girardi did was clearly abusive.

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What are you talking about? Based on what we know about injuries and the injury nexus about pitchers etc. etc. it was very abusive. Just because the risk isn't exactly quantifiable and some people make it doesn't make it not an abusive thing to do. If it raises the risk from a 15% baseline to substantially higher, say, 40%, it's abusive. There is also statistical proof that pitchers perform worse in ERA when they throw 110+ pitchers and I wouldn't be surprised to see it carry over from year-to-year and is surely a valid potential reason why Willis flopped this year.

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Girardi's job wasn't to give a [censored] about the long term well being of the organization aka 2-3 years down the line.

His job was to get to the playoffs. If the owners are saying FU when u ask for relief to spell your starters then you use what u got. Why?

Cuz if u don't the owners are gonna fire u at the end of the season.

[Vyse]

Shouldn't a manager's job be about doing the best for the team, not just his own selfish priorities?

[CharlieDontSurf]

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Shouldn't a manager's job be about doing the best for the team, not just his own selfish priorities?

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Only if he is a retard who wants to be unemployed at the end of the year.

Its the manager's job to attempt to, but if the FO thwarts him in every attempt to do so then he has to do his best to deliver on his job...aka get to playoffs. If he has to overwork pitchers than so be it.

It is much different than Joe Torre choosing to overwork and destroy his relievers arms/confidence when he had other options available to him that were not terrible.