Worst hand i've played in a while, 2 pair in a 3bet pot, need help.

[Somnius]

Depends on villain, you said he's pretty aggro, not sure how aggro you mean though.

If you bet this flop and he pushes, I fold unless I have a good read on him to think otherwise.

If he calls flop and this turn comes, I fire again, if he minraises+, I fold unless I have a reason not to based on player.

If the turn was a J, or a brick, same applies, I think this has to be double barreled and I wouldn't really be scared of him having the flush, in fact I see it as another reason for us to keep aggroing here. If a complete brick fell that did not straighten etc, then I'd have to reassess but again unless he's really aggro, I'd still probably fold.

If he calls turn and that river falls, I'd most likely bet again, considering he's been pretty docile, his calling range is pretty big, again generally, don't know this guy specifically.

[STARSCREAM.]

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don't know this guy specifically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither do I, but from what I could tell, it seemed like he was pretty aggressive in late position preflop. Havn't been at the table long enough with him to see if he's capable of anything fancy post flop however.

[Somnius]

then I would play it as mentioned.

[Shattered]

[ QUOTE ]
There is still value to gain with a flop bet- plenty of worse hands call. Checking and possibly c/r-ing AI is not a bad idea as well if he's super aggro.

[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you hoping will pay you off? AJ? KQ? They have 2 or 3 outs to improve and are much more likely to pay you off on a delayed c-bet than with a c-bet. When you bet, you're putting money in with the bottom of your range (assuming you're not a frequent 3-bettor). I don't understand how this isn't way ahead/way behind.


[ QUOTE ]
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.745% 54.45% 06.29% 26955 3114.00 { AhQd }
Hand 1: 39.255% 32.96% 06.29% 16317 3114.00 { 77+, AJs+, KQs, AQo+ }
this is why you bet the flop. you are likely ahead and it's time to protect now. I think this would be a reasonable range for villain calling a 3bet preflop esp if he's a frequent stealer and faces 3 bets often.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we split that up into hands that beat us and hands we beat...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 02.303% 02.15% 00.15% 213 15.00 { AhQd }
Hand 1: 97.697% 97.55% 00.15% 9657 15.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 80.426% 79.85% 00.58% 25295 184.00 { AhQd }
Hand 1: 19.574% 18.99% 00.58% 6017 184.00 { QQ-77, AJs }

I don't see how you can bet here. Sure, AJs is giving you a bet and KQs conceivably might, but if they're calling a flop bet they're calling a turn bet after you check the flop. If they bet the flop, call one bet and fold to further aggression as they won't be going crazy with less than AK.

I also think that QQ and worse sometimes calls a bet on the turn if villain's not completely solid, but never calls it on the flop but even without that qualification I think a flop check works best here.

[Somnius]

You're giving villain way too much credit...I don't think people play with x-ray knowledge of your whole cards...unless of course you're playing at Absolute...

Seriously though, you just reraised preflop from the blinds...that doesn't mean that anyone who calls you on the flop now has the range that beats you....c-betting is usually a must, when you reraise and not only get a big flop, but actually hit a hand, you wanna cbet this no questions asked. Many...many....many people will call this flop with many...many....many hands in their preflop r/c hand range. Generally, people know that most will cbet no matter what, so they call a flop, and if the aggression continues, they fold worse hands, or even better, call with worse hands...you can't simply put the villain on the range that beats you if they call...and then use that as an excuse to not bet...thereby basically giving them the pot because anyone with any sense will try to take you off the hand then, you may as well take the 3bet amount preflop and just give it to them and not waste time playing the hand.

EDIT: Also, obviously, there are draws out there, their calling range is now that much bigger...

[Profish2285]

Again, if you are not going to c-bet this flop, fearing this hit villains range better than you, then do not 3 bet pre flop. Seeing as how a 3 bet pre flop is extremely standard here, then its obvious that you have to bet the flop. Dont be afraid because someone called your 3 bet. There have been countless times I 3 bet, missed the flop completely, c-bet and took it down. It just goes to show you that people call 3 bets lighter than you think. You dont have to assume villain has TT+ and AK if he calls you pre flop.

[Shattered]

Somnius, your post is silly. Villain doesn't have a magical knowledge of what your cards are, but after you 3-bet OoP and lead out again on the flop he's not calling on an AKx flop without having a strong hand.

[ QUOTE ]
You can't simply put the villain on the range that beats you if they call... and then use that as an excuse not to bet?

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Um, why not? That sounds absurd, why would I ever bet into someone that only calls when he has me beat? This seems like an example of level 0 thinking of "I have a hand, bet bet!"

[ QUOTE ]
Many...many....many people will call this flop with many...many....many hands in their preflop r/c hand range.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you propose a range then I might be able to see where you're coming from but as is I'm just going to dismiss that as ridiculous. And again, there are no draws that fit his range.


I'm willing to accept any flaws in my logic (for example, it hinges on villain being a decent TAG which the evidence doesn't necessarily support) but to repeatedly say "You have to bet, you have TPTK and there are draws out there!" is a waste of time.

Profish, I would definitely bet this flop with 55 or something: That's not the point here. You're trying to extract value when you're ahead and lose the least when you're behind. Assuming villain is a decent TAG, you do have to assume he is calling with some kind of hand and can put you on AJs/KQs+ or pocket pairs when you 3-bet PF. If you think villain is a donk, then by all means bet, but against a reasonable range I think he rarely calls a flop bet with worse.

[Somnius]

I figured you would be able to extract the answers to these questions yourself from my posts, instead you take them at superficial value and deem them first level thinking, that's fine, I'd indulge in really breaking down for you what I mean so even you can understand it, and perhaps help you understand why your thinking here is the lesser, but when you're gonna be a prick about it, then that's fine, enjoy your "superior" poker skill and knowledge.

[Shattered]

I'm not claiming in any sense to have superior poker skills, which is why I'm still asking about this hand when far better players than me have said simply to c-bet. I said your post wasn't particularly useful because I already addressed all your points and the logic behind it appears to be 1st level thinking of "I have a hand, I bet." If there was something deeper in your post I apologize as I wasn't able to see it, but even rereading your post I still can't see much in it.

[wingchunflush]

I would lead the flop, or atleast c/r the turn once the scare card hits.