PLO200 - tricky turn spot

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Lol at someone deserving to be listened to because they won a single 186-entrant live Omaha-8 tournament in 1999.

[/ QUOTE ]Pete - I think winning a WSOP bracelet is a nice achievement.

But I didn't write (and certainly didn't mean to imply) that Steve deserved to be listened to because he won a tournament. I simply wrote [ QUOTE ]
Whether you agree with his point of view or not, he's probably worth listening to.

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't write why it's probably worth listening to him.

But since you seem to have presumed a reason I'd agree is not a very good one, let me supply my reason. Here it is:<ul type="square">Whether you agree with him or not, he has some interesting, thought provoking, and well expressed ideas.[/list]Buzz

[RoundTower]

[ QUOTE ]
75PTBB/100? I'm not sure where u got that from. I didn't play well in that sample, for sure.

Pete, I would disagree with your view of Badger on rgp. He was mostly a moan and one of those guys, like Ribbo actually, that always had to have the last word in an argument. But his limit O8b advice, when he got to it, was normally spot on.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]
I made a mathematical error and it should be -37.5ptBB/100. That is the amount you lose from the blinds if you fold them every time. 50 small blinds and 50 big blinds. In practice it's a little bit less, if you don't fold the BB when it is limped around.

My point is that you can't just opt never to play hands out of position, it would be far too costly. In 4+ handed play I'm losing 8ptBB/100 from the SB and 23ptBB/100 from the BB over a small sample of 7k hands in each. If I had folded them every time, I would have been a 3ptBB/100 loser over that sample, instead of a 6ptBB/100 winner. I find it hard to believe that you would have been better off by folding the blinds every time.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
75PTBB/100? I'm not sure where u got that from. I didn't play well in that sample, for sure.

Pete, I would disagree with your view of Badger on rgp. He was mostly a moan and one of those guys, like Ribbo actually, that always had to have the last word in an argument. But his limit O8b advice, when he got to it, was normally spot on.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]
I made a mathematical error and it should be -37.5ptBB/100. That is the amount you lose from the blinds if you fold them every time. 50 small blinds and 50 big blinds. In practice it's a little bit less, if you don't fold the BB when it is limped around.

My point is that you can't just opt never to play hands out of position, it would be far too costly. In 4+ handed play I'm losing 8ptBB/100 from the SB and 23ptBB/100 from the BB over a small sample of 7k hands in each. If I had folded them every time, I would have been a 3ptBB/100 loser over that sample, instead of a 6ptBB/100 winner. I find it hard to believe that you would have been better off by folding the blinds every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you talking only about folding the blinds in O8b?

[RoundTower]

no, I am talking about PLO high only, I don't have a database to compare for PLO8

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
75PTBB/100? I'm not sure where u got that from. I didn't play well in that sample, for sure.

Pete, I would disagree with your view of Badger on rgp. He was mostly a moan and one of those guys, like Ribbo actually, that always had to have the last word in an argument. But his limit O8b advice, when he got to it, was normally spot on.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]
I made a mathematical error and it should be -37.5ptBB/100. That is the amount you lose from the blinds if you fold them every time. 50 small blinds and 50 big blinds. In practice it's a little bit less, if you don't fold the BB when it is limped around.

My point is that you can't just opt never to play hands out of position, it would be far too costly. In 4+ handed play I'm losing 8ptBB/100 from the SB and 23ptBB/100 from the BB over a small sample of 7k hands in each. If I had folded them every time, I would have been a 3ptBB/100 loser over that sample, instead of a 6ptBB/100 winner. I find it hard to believe that you would have been better off by folding the blinds every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

although in 6-max, you're only going to post the blinds ~34 times every actual hundred hands of play, so folding them every time would probably only cost you 12-13 ptbb/100, which you *might* be able to make up from hands in other positions.

that said, i seriously doubt Dave D's assertion that he would have been better off folding all hands out of the blinds. that would mean that in the Position Stats page, not only would his "Net Amount" from those two positions be negative (which is normal), but the "Diff w/o Blind" would be as well, which I have never ever seen. Perhaps he misinterpreted his stats, or perhaps he was filtering to raised pots only or something (although personally, I have better results in blind hands in which I've called a raise than I am in ones that I've limped the sb or checked my option -- but then again I have some bizarre OOP results all around).

[Big Dave D]

You're right of course. I either looked at the stats too quickly and I did something else wrong. My blind play, whilst losing, did make up on the just pass position. So apologies there. Interestingly though, I did loose money or have a very marginal return in the first few positions.

Reflecting a little, passing the blinds in historical live game conditions would have been financial suicide, jsut because the games were so passive. This doesn't mean that early position play was any more fun, though.

gl

bdd

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
You're right of course. I either looked at the stats too quickly and I did something else wrong. My blind play, whilst losing, did make up on the just pass position. So apologies there. Interestingly though, I did loose money or have a very marginal return in the first few positions.

Reflecting a little, passing the blinds in historical live game conditions would have been financial suicide, jsut because the games were so passive. This doesn't mean that early position play was any more fun, though.

gl

bdd

[/ QUOTE ]

early position play is the most fun by far. like an adventure sport.

[iggymcfly]

Edit: Didn't read second page before responding.

Anyway though, I'm losing less than 1/3 of what I'd lose from the blinds if I folded every time (looking at hands with 6-9 players) and if I did fold every time, it would be enough to bring my winrate from 6 PTBB/100 to -3 PTBB/100 over a 35K hand sample.

Edit #2: LOL, that's weird that I'd have the exact same stats as RoundTower there. Guess that must be pretty typical.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: Didn't read second page before responding.

Anyway though, I'm losing less than 1/3 of what I'd lose from the blinds if I folded every time (looking at hands with 6-9 players) and if I did fold every time, it would be enough to bring my winrate from 6 PTBB/100 to -3 PTBB/100 over a 35K hand sample.

Edit #2: LOL, that's weird that I'd have the exact same stats as RoundTower there. Guess that must be pretty typical.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be interesting if Pokertracker could break the stats down for you, because clearly there is a difference between completing the SB and being in the BB when playing in an unraised pot compared to defending your blind when someone raise.

Also, I really think that the way you should consider this problem is to divide the cost of SB + BB over all the hands. If you come in as BB and play a full rotation, then its not like UTG to the button is played for free.

And I'm not sure how you guys calculate all this because Ptracker's number don't seem to add up for me even trying to factor in the rake.

[goodluck2me]

Im pretty sure it was reggie who wrote this.