Getting Killed in Vegas 2/4 Games and Can't Find a Way Out

[TheCount212]

Look, the turn c/r was a little fancy, but okay I guess. Most here would just bet out with their TTP, although that doesn't make your c/r a mistake.

But you must realize that the river cap is absolutely horrible. All he needs is a 2 in his hand to crush you. He got lucky on the river. Just call his raise crying, tell him nice hand, and make note of his play so you can take advantage of him later.

Looks like you fell in love with your AKs and then ignored what the board and the action were telling you. Be more flexible in your thinking and adjust to what the circumstances are screaming at you.

[banzi]

Okay time to catch up with all the responses. Thanks for posting.

Thanks for the clarification of "value betting" - the reason I asked was for exactly the reason you replied - I always felt it meant exactly what you posted afterwards, and not the initial implied meaning.

[ QUOTE ]

Buddy, people are telling you that you play poorly and you're not willing to listen. If you put somebody on a hand and never revise your read even though the action screams that you should you will lose in the long run. What exactly do you put him on once he 3 bets you on the river? Does he really 3 bet an ace with a kicker that doesn't play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite the contrary - I am listening and I do know what I am being told. What you guys aren't listening to is that I had watched this player go to war with AJ in a similar situation and he lost and I used that hand to judge this one. I was wrong. I am taking advice and acting on it.

I didn't "fall in love" with the hand - I had a read and I was wrong. I acted on past information and while the information was correct, the outcome was different here.

I am starting to wish I posted a different hand from this one, simply because from one hand I played badly (re-read that please - Yes, I know I played that badly! I KNOW!) I feel that some people are too quick to post "You suck - read SSHE!" rather than actually help.

To recap:

I have bought SSHE. I finished my first read through last night. On my second now.
I have made two laminated cheat sheet cards using the hand tables from the book as well as an odds-outs-percentwin card.
I have created an XLS sheet I am going to use to track my progress.
I will be posting more hands the next time I play. Going to take some notes while I'm there.
I will be expanding my range of hands as per the book.
I will be betting out and ignoring check raises.
I will work on my reading and re-evaluate in times of need.
I will walk away from a bad beat and think what I could've done to avoid it.
But most of all, I will remember, always that I played that hand badly and lost.

How's that?

[Man of Means]

OK you've acquitted yourself well. We can agree to disagree about the optimal play of the hand, because you were there and had a read that you acted on. On paper though, you gotta realize this hand looks somewhat suboptimal -- even though we did not have the history vs this villain, are emotionally removed from the hand and can offer an opinion based on our own experience with 2/4 villains. We know that people will overplay hands early on, but rarely will they do it on the big bet streets without some kind of huge hand.

Welcome to the forums, let's look at another hand.

[mntndrew]

[ QUOTE ]
I will walk away from a bad beat and think what I could've done to avoid it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't forget that the answer will sometimes, often even, be "nothing." That is not a bad thing, because that's where the money comes from.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
What you guys aren't listening to is that I had watched this player go to war with AJ in a similar situation

[/ QUOTE ]

We're not listening to that because you never told us. When you make hand posts in the future, include all your reads and past history, if you can. Often, this will make you recognize that a hand is so specific to a certain player that it isn't worth posting.

In my opinion, banzi, you're approaching poker like you're cramming for an exam. There's only so much you about the game that you can put onto a cheat sheet.

For example, knowing WHICH starting hands you can play isn't nearly as important as understanding WHY you can play them -- and your laminated card isn't going to help you there.

And then, of course, there's postflop play -- far more important than preflop play in the long run -- for which there is no easy answer.

I'm glad to see you're re-reading SSHE, but you should really spend some time with each part of it rather than reading it cover to cover again and again. By the time you read the book the second time, you've already forgotten a bunch of stuff from the first time you read it. Whereas if you immerse yourself in a section, you'll retain the information much better when you move on to the next section.

Finally, the people who get the most out of the forum are the ones who respond to many more hands than they post. I strongly recommend you do this -- don't be afraid to post your thoughts on others' hands. It's okay to be wrong.

-McGee

[TheCount212]

....I didn't "fall in love" with the hand - I had a read and I was wrong. I acted on past information and while the information was correct, the outcome was different here.....
--------
No offense, sir, but if your read told you to cap the river with TTP on a paired board after he three-banged your c/r there is no logical conclusion other than you fell in love with your TTP. Your response to that idea indicates exactly what I suggested.. that you need to be a bit more flexible. I'm not saying you suck. I'm saying it might have been prudent for you to pause a nanosecond before capping the river, and ask yourself, for an admittedly ridiculous example, "Damn, has this clown been playing K2s?"

[Frond]

Hey Banzi,

I think Aces McGee's advice of slowing down is really solid. Dont try and do or work on too much too soon.

SSHE for most of us is a book that should be read and reread like you are doing but try breaking it up a bit. Read it then go back through some sections, go back over the hand quizzes many times. This really helped me and I still go through the book all the time. Is has so much great info and it is really well written. You might be an amazing reader but I think you will find that if you slow it down a bit this will help out immensely for your game.

The fact that you have a really tight starting hand range is okay but as you probably have seen in reading SSHE you can open it up a lot more. Just open it up slowly.

See if you can locate that bit that Ray Zee wrote on here somewhere about the "Stages of a Poker Player". It is golden to read. If I can find it I'll send it to you

A few other things:
1.Post a bunch of other hands like you said you are going to do. This will really help you a lot.
2. You will have to have thick skin in the forums here at times cause what you will hear from one poster, another poster may have a total diferent way of conveying the very same point to you.
3. If one of the Vets who has been around here for a while gives you some advice on a hand, it is very likely that he or she has seen your situation before. Not to say that they are always right but more often than not you should relly listen to what they say.
4. When I first came in here I took offense at some of the responses that I got but looked back at the hands and the harsh criticism I got was just what I needed to step my game up to the next level. I would rather hear about all the mistakes that I am making rather than all the good stuff that I am doing. It is hard to grow as a player without recgnizing and working on your weaknesses(cause we all have em).

Good luck Banzi. Keep your chin up [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[MTDog-7]

Something to keep in mind you can be a better than average player and still be a losing player in a 2-4 game. Between the rake and tips and the "I have to see the flop with ATC it's only 2 bucks attitude."
You have to be a near perfect player to make it work. 2-4 games and even 3-6 games can be big suck out games.
If there are enough people going to the River the odds are against you.
Try stepping up to 3-6 or 4-8 or look for a good spread limit game like a 2-6 or 2-10. look for softer games, good table or game selection can help. You might get Wilson's Turbo Texas Hold'em Software it has helped me out in my cash games a lot.

[Hamlet]

banzi, can you post more hands?

I disagree with the people telling banzi to loosen up. I think he's better off playing tight until he's sure that his post-flop play is solid. With the rake in 2-4, I suspect that alot of the hands recommended will be losing hands if his post-flop play is not solid.

banzi, on the hand you posted, I would typically just bet, bet, bet. In this particular hand, that would have resulted in getting 3-bets on the turn while you were ahead, and putting 2-bets in on the river when you were behind. Contrast that with the way you played it, which got 2 bets in while you were ahead, and 4 bets in while you were behind.

Checkraising the turn is not terrible, but I think in general it is going to result in a little less money going into the pot over the long haul. In this case, you got 2 bets into the pot instead of 3. If he had had a weak hand, he might not have bet at all. Think if his hand were QJ, QT, or JT. He'll likely take a free card, giving him a free chance to beat you. The only time checkraising will be better than just betting is if he has specifically a weak ace, or if he is very aggressive.

Once you've checkraised the turn, it is really silly to checkraise the river. What hand is going to bet that you beat? Any ace is very likely to just check behind you after your turn checkraise. After he 3-bets, capping it is very bad. You are beat here almost always, unless you are playing a complete maniac. And even a complete maniac sometimes gets lucky. When 4 bets go in on the river on a board like this, two pair is almost never good.

[Hyperrrprank]

[ QUOTE ]


4. When I first came in here I took offense at some of the responses that I got but looked back at the hands and the harsh criticism I got was just what I needed to step my game up to the next level.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second this. I thought this forum was full of a$$es who just wanted to flame me when I first posted. I came close to signing off for good. I look back and realize I was being the a$$ when I got overly defensive about what I thought at the time were quality plays.

I've learned a lot from these guys in just a couple months, and none of that would have been possible if I didn't realize no one here was out to score points on me for being a newbie.