Turning Hand Up Headup = Unethical?

[mikech]

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The problem with the play is that you are unfairly gaining information (your opponent's response) due to acting out of turn. You shouldn't muck, bet, call OR expose your cards out of turn.

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dude...what?

to OP: in a cash game, when it's headsup at the river, showing your hand should always be FINE. you are not influencing any action, and you are not gaining any unfair advantage. however, some rooms have begun to implement (what i believe to be) wrongheaded rules to curb or prohibit this practice; the bellagio, for instance, has moved in this direction. so protect yourself and ask if it's allowed at the room you're playing in before you do it.

ps: when the bellagio made exposing your hand "illegal" i tried to find out what the consequences were for violating it. turns out, not much. the first time you do it (if anyone even complains, which is rare in the first place, since most ppl realize it's perfectly ok), they will give you a warning. if you do it again, despite having been warned, then you'll be asked to leave.

the point is, your hand WILL NOT BE KILLED. i felt that this was an important concession, and i was satisfied with that explanation. killing the hand would be a far greater violation of fairness and the "integrity of the game."

[bav]

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Bav and pfapfap have tons of real life experience - one being a dealer. And they are trying to help you. But I am guessing you don't need help.

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To be fair, I don't think I ever said these theatrics should not be allowed. Folks were asking what possible reason there might be for not allowing it. Well... because TDA rules prohibit it, and in general it's not a grand idea to have one set of rules for tourneys and a different set for cash games (which I know a lotta respected folks disagree with...but I'm all about consistency and simplicity where possible). Or because it's a very inconsistent rule and players coming from areas that prohibit it or even kill exposed hands can easily be duped into fouling their own cards if it is unexpectedly done to them. Or because many players find it objectionable.

So yes there ARE good reasons one might prohibit it. Felix claiming nobody has come up with a single good reason yet is pretty silly. But...what difference does this make? You live by the rules of the poker room you're playing in, so it just doesn't matter whether I think it's a good rule or a bad rule.

But personally, I actually like it when folks do this stuff; it's kinda fun. It's generally about theatrics, but if folks don't get silly about it I don't mind at all. And now and then you get the Einsteins doing the STUPIDEST stunts in their efforts to be cool (like exposing one card while their opponent is contemplating calling an all-in that PROVES to their opponent that they are winning or losing and allows their opponent to make a perfect and brainless call or fold). So I'm personally pretty happy with the rule, but I do sorta keep an eye out for players about to screw themselves at the table when someone pulls a trick like this and yes, I WILL open my mouth to say "he hasn't folded yet" or "his hand is still live" if they're about to muck their cards; that ain't violating one player to a hand, that's keeping what may have been an innocent attempt to gain information from becoming a serious oops due to misunderstanding of rules.

[Ghazban]

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The problem with the play is that you are unfairly gaining information (your opponent's response) due to acting out of turn. You shouldn't muck, bet, call OR expose your cards out of turn.

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dude...what?

to OP: in a cash game, when it's headsup at the river, showing your hand should always be FINE. you are not influencing any action, and you are not gaining any unfair advantage. however, some rooms have begun to implement (what i believe to be) wrongheaded rules to curb or prohibit this practice; the bellagio, for instance, has moved in this direction. so protect yourself and ask if it's allowed at the room you're playing in before you do it.

ps: when the bellagio made exposing your hand "illegal" i tried to find out what the consequences were for violating it. turns out, not much. the first time you do it (if anyone even complains, which is rare in the first place, since most ppl realize it's perfectly ok), they will give you a warning. if you do it again, despite having been warned, then you'll be asked to leave.

the point is, your hand WILL NOT BE KILLED. i felt that this was an important concession, and i was satisfied with that explanation. killing the hand would be a far greater violation of fairness and the "integrity of the game."

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Isn't the Bellagio rule only true at 5/10 and lower? I had a dealer tell me a few weeks ago it was still fine to show cards at 10/20+

[bav]

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Isn't the Bellagio rule only true at 5/10 and lower? I had a dealer tell me a few weeks ago it was still fine to show cards at 10/20+

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If true, that would give credence to my claim that the newbies get confused and angered by this. Once you're playing for real stakes, we all kinda figure you know the game and can protect yourself. All manner of things can be allowed among consenting, informed adults that would cause trouble if allowed of the bleating masses.

[mikech]

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Isn't the Bellagio rule only true at 5/10 and lower? I had a dealer tell me a few weeks ago it was still fine to show cards at 10/20+

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it applied to 10-20+ as well, but i've been out of town for over a month, so i dunno if they might've changed it. the bellagio has some really dumb rules.

[RR]

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Isn't the Bellagio rule only true at 5/10 and lower? I had a dealer tell me a few weeks ago it was still fine to show cards at 10/20+

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If true, that would give credence to my claim that the newbies get confused and angered by this. Once you're playing for real stakes, we all kinda figure you know the game and can protect yourself. All manner of things can be allowed among consenting, informed adults that would cause trouble if allowed of the bleating masses.

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In small games I would discourage it being done because a lot of low limit players have trouble understanding there can be two different rules for different situations (ok to show heads up, not ok to show multiway). There certainly isn't any penalty for showing it, but I would prefer that plaers not do that.

[Ghazban]

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Isn't the Bellagio rule only true at 5/10 and lower? I had a dealer tell me a few weeks ago it was still fine to show cards at 10/20+

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If true, that would give credence to my claim that the newbies get confused and angered by this. Once you're playing for real stakes, we all kinda figure you know the game and can protect yourself. All manner of things can be allowed among consenting, informed adults that would cause trouble if allowed of the bleating masses.

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I agree. I think there's a cutoff in stakes for where you can run the board multiple times, too, but I'm not positive of that. I've overheard people ask for it at 2/5 tables at the Bellagio and been told they couldn't. I've never seen it requested at 5/10 (my primary game).

[mikech]

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I think there's a cutoff in stakes for where you can run the board multiple times, too, but I'm not positive of that.

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running it multiple times isn't allowed at all at bellagio, and i've played up to 50-100 there. i think it's still allowed in bobby's room, but not for any other games, even at very high stakes. it's among the many reasons some high stakes players won't play there anymore and have started games elsewhere (eg, gabe thaler).

[egocidal]

felix seems absurdly fixated on trying to sound like the polls on here are a good indicator of the rules. Dude, I keep saying this: NOT ILLEGAL. DOUCHEBAGGY!


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[bav]

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felix seems absurdly fixated on trying to sound like the polls on here are a good indicator of the rules. Dude, I keep saying this: NOT ILLEGAL. DOUCHEBAGGY!


[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Well, yeah. I haven't answered his poll because it doesn't have the correct answer. His choices are "legitimate", "not cool, but not illegal" and "you are scum". None is right (though after reading his responses I lean toward "scum" [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). He didn't know it was against the rules where he was playing, so he's not scum. But it apparently was sorta maybe against their rules (this remains a bit fuzzy). Where's the 4th poll choice that fits my description? "not cool, not legal, don't do it again, but you didn't know better so you are forgiven"?

If he does this in a room that allows it, then his first poll choice fits. It's legal, it's allowed, do it if you please.