Dan Harrington. Justified stiff?

[jdock99]

Several posters in this thread seem to be making an assumption that is not necessarily true. They are assuming that the 3% juice actually goes completely to the staff. As is usual for the casino industry (and I am sure many others) much of this money is diverted further up the food chain to people who come to work in suits and ties and never set foot in the tournament area.

FWIW, the Legends tournament staff do get paid fairly well during the tournament, but nowhere near the ridiculous estimates you guys are "calculating."

Anyways, this thread really wasnt supposed to be about how tournament personnel are underpaid, but more about Dan Harrington's extreme frugality, and the absurdity of his $1 tip to the security guards, even in the face of a great financial windfall.

[Jbrochu]

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Anyways, this thread really wasnt supposed to be about how tournament personnel are underpaid, but more about Dan Harrington's extreme frugality, and the absurdity of his $1 tip to the security guards, even in the face of a great financial windfall.

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How many tournaments does Dan bust out of between these "great financial windfalls"? Why is it your business if he tips in addition to what is already withheld? How are we supposed to know where the 3% withholding (in this case) goes when the casinos often refuse to divulge this info? Why do people in the payout room disrespect Dan's privacy and post his tipping decision on a public forum?

[Micturition Man]

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Several posters in this thread seem to be making an assumption that is not necessarily true. They are assuming that the 3% juice actually goes completely to the staff. As is usual for the casino industry (and I am sure many others) much of this money is diverted further up the food chain to people who come to work in suits and ties and never set foot in the tournament area.


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Actually we *are* aware that you don't get the full 3%.

We know you are getting ripped off, as we are, and the solution is for us to stop tipping.

If the players stop tipping market mechanisms will kick in. There will be some combination of better dealers quitting tournaments, the house paying dealers more in direct compensation, and the house making less in total profit.

Also the house may or may not raise the vig even more.

Personally I have no reason to think dealers are overcompensated, so I would be fine if the new order were a wash for them. But I am certain that the house is overcompensated and the players are paying too much in vig + tips.

[Abbaddabba]

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Or the better dealers will leave the industry and you will be left with dealers that are happy making the lower amount. I mention this about every time this comes up; if you don't want to tip, don't tip; just don't complain when the tournament hosts aren't able to get good dealers.


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Tournament hosts DONT get good dealers despite the fact that most people tip.


And if we didnt tip, casinos would be forced to raise wages to keep the employees that they want. Because they have a vested interest in providing "good" dealers too. Casinos want the same things that we do. If players arent happy, they go elsewhere. If players leave, casinos arent happy.

[RickAstleyFan]

Security people can't accept tips where I play...

[MikeMcClain]

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Several posters in this thread seem to be making an assumption that is not necessarily true. They are assuming that the 3% juice actually goes completely to the staff. As is usual for the casino industry (and I am sure many others) much of this money is diverted further up the food chain to people who come to work in suits and ties and never set foot in the tournament area.

FWIW, the Legends tournament staff do get paid fairly well during the tournament, but nowhere near the ridiculous estimates you guys are "calculating."

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You use that word 'calculating' in quotes to imply that it is bogus math. The bottom line is that $300 was labeled as 'service' on the receipt, and that the sum of the $300's of all of the players added up to about $200 per table hour for this tournament.

Where is all of the money going? Even if the dealers are only getting 20% of the $200/table-hour, then there is another $116,400 divvied up amongst the other 'staff'. Show us the proper math to understand why this is not enough.

If the cardroom does not choose to educate us regarding the costs of running this tournament and how the service fee will be divided amongst the staff, it is difficult for us to determine if some staff members are being screwed and if some are being over-compensated. Until they better explain the expenses, we can only look at the total amount paid and our own estimate of how much the total should be. And when the former number is higher than the latter, it is hard to leave any extra.

In the same manner, they do not tell us how our tips will be divided. Do the bulk of these also get skimmed off by the suits? If so, how can we leave tips unless we can get them in the proper hands?

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Anyways, this thread really wasnt supposed to be about how tournament personnel are underpaid, but more about Dan Harrington's extreme frugality

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Your tourney tip example can only be judged for its frugality by looking at the pay scale of the tournament staff though.

[pig4bill]

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Also, it's a little weird/absurd to me that poker players, who are so thoroughly spendthrift/profligate in all aspects of life, suddenly become prudent and cost-conscious at the end of a tournament and then begin penny-pinching.

For instance, I'm sure that some of you advocating not tipping in tournaments do tip bouncers at clubs--I see door-guys get $100 just to take customers to the table and much more if they're providing any kind of special treatment. Not only are these employees already grossly overpaid, but you'll never see them again or work with them in any context.

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That's because they're trying to impress the chicks with them.

[pig4bill]

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We (meaning people who win tourneys) should really start a trend of not-tipping.

Basically every year the juice gets higher and higher, yet people keep tipping the same. It's practically a scam.

If people just stop tipping then the casinos will be forced to directly give the dealers fair compensation, and poker players can just pay the juice and be done with it.

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Or the better dealers will leave the industry and you will be left with dealers that are happy making the lower amount. I mention this about every time this comes up; if you don't want to tip, don't tip; just don't complain when the tournament hosts aren't able to get good dealers.

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Heh? You think the good dealers at the WSOP are thinking "I love dealing the WSOP, but I won't any more since that Yeng guy didn't tip extra"?

[shaniac]

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Several posters in this thread seem to be making an assumption that is not necessarily true. They are assuming that the 3% juice actually goes completely to the staff. As is usual for the casino industry (and I am sure many others) much of this money is diverted further up the food chain to people who come to work in suits and ties and never set foot in the tournament area.

FWIW, the Legends tournament staff do get paid fairly well during the tournament, but nowhere near the ridiculous estimates you guys are "calculating."

[/ QUOTE ]

You use that word 'calculating' in quotes to imply that it is bogus math. The bottom line is that $300 was labeled as 'service' on the receipt, and that the sum of the $300's of all of the players added up to about $200 per table hour for this tournament.

Where is all of the money going? Even if the dealers are only getting 20% of the $200/table-hour, then there is another $116,400 divvied up amongst the other 'staff'. Show us the proper math to understand why this is not enough.

If the cardroom does not choose to educate us regarding the costs of running this tournament and how the service fee will be divided amongst the staff, it is difficult for us to determine if some staff members are being screwed and if some are being over-compensated. Until they better explain the expenses, we can only look at the total amount paid and our own estimate of how much the total should be. And when the former number is higher than the latter, it is hard to leave any extra.

In the same manner, they do not tell us how our tips will be divided. Do the bulk of these also get skimmed off by the suits? If so, how can we leave tips unless we can get them in the proper hands?

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Anyways, this thread really wasnt supposed to be about how tournament personnel are underpaid, but more about Dan Harrington's extreme frugality

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Your tourney tip example can only be judged for its frugality by looking at the pay scale of the tournament staff though.

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It's hard to argue with this, and congrats on the finish, Mike.

Just for our information, can you describe how the option to tip was presented this year? Did anyone mention the tip when you were cashing out? In past years at the Bike, when there was no withholding for staff, they made a point of mentioning it when we were cashing out. I guess I prefer it the old way, but I'm sure it's worse for the staff.

The only reason I have a mind to tip-out after tournaments in the first place is because the first tournaments I ever played (at a NYC club), there was no money withheld for dealers and one of the managers repeatedly stated that 5% was customary on big cashes.

[sheetsworld]

At the racetrack, they take out 17% give or take from the prize pools. Part of this goes to paying the tellers and the hot dog salesmen. Still we tip "extra" from time to time when we had a real good day....don't we all?

Guess not

I guess what rubs people the wrong way is the "suggestion" or "pressure" to tip that the casinos put on the players. They should not "guilt" people into doing anything, but this does not mean that it is so terrible to give a few bucks after having a 1 mm cash.

sheets