3 bet gets 4 bet deep in Sunday Million

[Todd Terry]

[ QUOTE ]

I've looked through what you've written, and a lot of it's wrong. Also, ur going to be worse off vs. a random range than one that has a lot of high cards in them on that T64r flop for example. Since a lot of those 4x/6x/Tx hands that are in the random range (which have us as a 3 to 1 dog) are not in a more realistic range.



[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, I don't know how to run all possible missed flops for AQo, but here's one that addresses your concerns, AQo is still behind:


---
4,300,560 games 0.063 secs 68,262,857 games/sec

Board: Kc 8d 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.545% 44.69% 01.85% 1922004 79677.00 { AQo }
Hand 1: 53.455% 51.60% 01.85% 2219202 79677.00 { 22+, A2s+, K4s+, Q9s+, JTs, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, A2o+, K5o+, Q9o+, JTo }


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[LearnedfromTV]

I think the whole equity discussion is a tangent that misses the point. If you're in a situation where something is +EV with any 2, it's more +EV with a good hand, like AQ. For some board/line combinations, the majority of our value is derived from the board and our opponent's range, and our cards don't matter. So, if we call, that value is set, and then we add value that comes from having the hand we do, mostly from making one pair but occasionally from calling with ace high, and a little more often from semi-bluffing with ace high or ace high + someother draw. Flatting and floating and threebetting are both profitable, and which one is more profitable with AQ is not mostly based on our equity when we miss the flop but on how much he'll bluff off when we hit the flop and stuff like what his two barrel and three barrel frequencies is and whether we accurately assess those frequencies.

That said, AQo has more than 50% equity than a random hand on 71% of flops, or slightly more than half of those without an ace or queen. It has greater than 70% equity on 62% of flops, or something like 40% of flops without an ace or queen.

Change random hand to top 40% and those percentages are 66 and 59.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

you guys are insane with these numbers, i go through the thread and all i see are numbers.

it's not about that, it's about hunderds of thousands of hands and flop generating a feel, and the knowledge of what boards are good to c-bet, if your opponent knows that, and what boards are good to bluf fraise and rep something in your fabricated range.

the problem is that a lot of people (i'm sorry, but mtt ppl in general, i haven't hated on them in a while) really don't know that. it's someting that a lot of people are uncomfortable with, so they 3-bet- which is okay, certainly +EV even if it's not the most +EV, as long as they know how to react to the possible situations that will arise based on info on their opponene.ts

[g-p]

[ QUOTE ]
ZJ I was going to say similar don't 3bet PF unless you are snapcalling a shove,

Doing this with 58s is fine though.

[/ QUOTE ]
but 86o? 42o?? hmmm

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ZJ I was going to say similar don't 3bet PF unless you are snapcalling a shove,

Doing this with 58s is fine though.

[/ QUOTE ]
but 86o? 42o?? hmmm

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand doesn't matter if he will fold often enough.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
the problem is that a lot of people (i'm sorry, but mtt ppl in general, i haven't hated on them in a while) really don't know that. it's someting that a lot of people are uncomfortable with, so they 3-bet- which is okay,

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, if you suck at poker, you should avoid postflop situations.

I'm not interested in discussions on how terrible players should play to avoid tough decisions.

[LearnedfromTV]

ae you're right and wrong, the problem with what you're saying is that every feel play has a mathematical foundation. It isn't just that certain boards are good to cbet, float, double-checkraise bluff, whatever the [censored], it's why those boards are what they are.

[Ship Ship McGipp]

obviously that is true, i'm saying i have no idea the math behind it

[TheNewf]

This thread has gone awful long to try to explain "only reraise if you can snapcall a shove, otherwise call and play good postflop".

[Requin]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread has gone awful long to try to explain "only reraise if you can snapcall a shove, otherwise call and play good postflop".

[/ QUOTE ]QFT