Don't we need more immigrants?

[vhawk01]

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I know you're not being literal when you call it slave labor, but I still want to point out that African slaves were captured and brought here in chains, whereas illegal immigrants are bending over backward, risking prison and death just to get here.

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Right, its all the good parts of slave labor with none of the bad parts.

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This might have been be true if unskilled immigrants came here as guestworkers with no path to citizenship and no birthright citizenship for their children, but this is not the case.

I would say that an increased proportion of voters that favor bigger government (which a sizable majority of Mexican immigrants do), socialized healthcare and affirmative action etc. is a 'bad part' if you appreciate freedom.

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True enough but we can't kick out ALL the Americans.

Oh, you were talking about immigrants?

[vhawk01]

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and dont for one second think that when the irish/italians came over there wasnt a big "uproar" about assimilation, like some people do with the mexicans. History repeats itself, its just that the media is able to distort and spin things on a wider scale nowadays.

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This, to me, is the silliest argument I hear, and I hear it over and over again. I'm no expert on American history, and I wasn't around to witness it firsthand, but it is my understanding that pretty much every immigrant group segregated themselves, lived in ghettos, and generally refused to assimilate. As least, the first gen ones. Then they gave birth to a bunch of Americans, and they became more and more assimilated. Undoubtedly there are exceptions to this, some groups who instantly assimilated, but I have a hard time believing these Mexican immigrants are somehow the worst assimilaters in American history. Are second and third generation Mexican-Americans any worse at assimilating than second and third generation Italian-Americans were?

[Misfire]

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There is without doubt reform is needed. But until then the current laws must be enforced.

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You would have made a good colonist.

[Misfire]

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Things seem to cheap enough for me already at Wal-Mart and McDonald's (though I rarely eat there). I don't spend a lot anyway so why should I care much about saving a little more.

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You can ship your surplus money to my Stars account so things won't seem too cheap.

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Don't the lowest wage-earners in America generally tend to consume more in social benefits than they pay in taxes anyway? So I'm not convinced it is a net plus for the economy to have taxes supporting the welfare state.

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FYP

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Those who lean Libertarian or AC-ist, ought to consider that the only way to have either of those, or even to merely reduce government somewhat in that direction, is to have a demography of voters who mostly want the same sort of thing. Do you get that? It's really key. The only way to have the kind of government and society you want, is to have a majority people around you who mostly want the same thing. Think on this - please.

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The only way to have a society without majority rule is by majority rule? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Most immigrants come from backgrounds of bigger not smaller government; which direction do you think they'll vote towards??? By bigger I mean relatively more intrusive, more controlling, more statist.

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If they liked intrusive government so much, why are they leaving?

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America is already changing in many ways, and mostly not for the better. America was a better country in 1960's and even 70's, this was then a much better place to live: far less crime, better school results, less violence, less drug problems, less pollution, less congestion, less nearly everything bad.

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Ah yes, let's fondly reminisce blacks being sprayed with fire hoses, young men being conscripted into slave labor to kill Asians for no good reason, while breathing the sweet exhaust of the fuel-efficient '67 Chevy Nova.

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edit: Early American immigrants came here without a government-provided social safety net. The ramifications and differences of that, compared to immigration today, are truly great. I'll amend my post along the lines that as long as America has government-sponsored social safety nets, I think that unbridled low-skilled immigration is not a net plus. If this were America in the 1800's, it might attract ONLY those who were coming to work hard and learn English and assimilate and become Americans (instead of people merely living in America). This, too, is worthy of thought.

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But why don't we see as stiff an opposition to the welfare state as we do to immigration??

[PLOlover]

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. Are second and third generation Mexican-Americans any worse at assimilating than second and third generation Italian-Americans were?

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from what I understand most italians purposely did not let their children learn italian, so that they would assimiliate better.

[John Kilduff]

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Things seem to cheap enough for me already at Wal-Mart and McDonald's (though I rarely eat there). I don't spend a lot anyway so why should I care much about saving a little more.

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You can ship your surplus money to my Stars account so things won't seem too cheap.

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I just bought SIX soupspoons at Wal-Mart for 50 CENTS TOTAL. Six forks too for 50 cents total = that's 12.5 cents apiece. Regular price was 6/$1. Gym shorts $6.99, I got 8 pairs last summer and none have worn out at all and I use them a lot. How much more can really be saved, and what is quality of life worth to you?

Tell you what, I'll gladly ship the small difference in potential savings to your Stars account if you'll wait in rush hour traffic for me so I don't have to. Deal?

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Don't the lowest wage-earners in America generally tend to consume more in social benefits than they pay in taxes anyway? So I'm not convinced it is a net plus for the economy to have taxes supporting the welfare state.

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FYP

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Until any significant progress reducing the taxes supporting the welfare state is made, I'll continue to think that reducing immigration would do more in the direction of lowering the increased demands on social services and consequently taxes.

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Those who lean Libertarian or AC-ist, ought to consider that the only way to have either of those, or even to merely reduce government somewhat in that direction, is to have a demography of voters who mostly want the same sort of thing. Do you get that? It's really key. The only way to have the kind of government and society you want, is to have a majority people around you who mostly want the same thing. Think on this - please.

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The only way to have a society without majority rule is by majority rule? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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The only way to have small(er) government is by having a citizenry who predominantly believes in smaller government. Imoprting people from countries in which government nanny-statism is prevalent, is not likely to move things in that direction, wouldn't you think?

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Most immigrants come from backgrounds of bigger not smaller government; which direction do you think they'll vote towards??? By bigger I mean relatively more intrusive, more controlling, more statist.

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If they liked intrusive government so much, why are they leaving?

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They are leaving because the total package is better here; they are not leaving to escape big statism in their own countries (except maybe refugees from some crazy places like North Korea).

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[America is already changing in many ways, and mostly not for the better. America was a better country in 1960's and even 70's, this was then a much better place to live: far less crime, better school results, less violence, less drug problems, less pollution, less congestion, less nearly everything bad.

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Ah yes, let's fondly reminisce blacks being sprayed with fire hoses, young men being conscripted into slave labor to kill Asians for no good reason, while breathing the sweet exhaust of the fuel-efficient '67 Chevy Nova.

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Quality of living overall was better though obviously it was not without some flaws or trouble spots. You're confusing the issue by picking on a few specific flaws when the discussion is about overall quality of life. Increased social consciousness got rid of the things you mention; immigration doesn't get credit for doing that.

There didn't used to be significant smog or "unhealthful air quality" because there were fewer cars overall, even though those cars polluted more on an individual basis.

Did you know when I was in grade school many families didn't see a need to lock their home doors at night or to lock their car doors? Sounds a lot nicer, doesn't it? - and that's the way it should be. You might be too young to remember back when the streets were a lot less violent, and when people weren't constantly worried about getting ripped off. Did you know you didn't used to have to pay in advance when you stayed at a motel or hotel? You paid the bill when you left, whether it was tomorrow or a week or two from today. You didn't have to pay in advance for gasoline. The gas station attendant asked if you wanted your oil checked, and always squeegeed your windshield for free, too, while the tank was filling up. Violence and theft were just a lot rarer and people trusted each other more.

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edit: Early American immigrants came here without a government-provided social safety net. The ramifications and differences of that, compared to immigration today, are truly great. I'll amend my post along the lines that as long as America has government-sponsored social safety nets, I think that unbridled low-skilled immigration is not a net plus. If this were America in the 1800's, it might attract ONLY those who were coming to work hard and learn English and assimilate and become Americans (instead of people merely living in America). This, too, is worthy of thought.

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But why don't we see as stiff an opposition to the welfare state as we do to immigration??

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Good question, but what does it matter?

A lot of poor people are voters and they aren't likely going to vote against the welfare state, are they? But they still suffer from increased imported drug gangs, greater congestion, greater street crime and violence; plus immigrants depress their wages even if immigrants don't depress yours.

There is also something to be said for cultural affinity. Most people prefer being around people who are like them in as many ways as possible. Many Americans also realize that many immigrants aren't here to assimilate and they probably resent that. When illegal immigrants start marching through the streets making demands, it may rub many the wrong way.

[John Kilduff]

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Are second and third generation Mexican-Americans any worse at assimilating than second and third generation Italian-Americans were?


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Yeah, probably.

Irish immigrants also spoke English as their first language.

U.K. culture, and to an extent, Italian culture as well, are both closer to American culture than is Mexican culture.

[guids]

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and dont for one second think that when the irish/italians came over there wasnt a big "uproar" about assimilation, like some people do with the mexicans. History repeats itself, its just that the media is able to distort and spin things on a wider scale nowadays.

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Yes, and since Nazi-Germany and Japan became affluent, Western-style democracies soon after their regimes were violently overthrown, the same thing will inevitably happen in Iraq. Any other opinion is simply media spin and distortion.

The fact that earlier immigrant groups have assimilated doesn't necessarily mean that Mexican immigrants will assimilate under the current conditions. In the early 20th century circumstances were different and pressure on immigrants to assimilate was much stronger, for instance no welfare state etc.

Do you have any data that actually support Mexican assimilation happening?

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looking for statistics is ridiculous. this isnt a short process, it never has been, so saying they are or arent assimilating at XX rate is pointless. Like someoen said earlier, it is a natural progression that immigrants come over, all live in the the same area, only do business amongst themselves etc (hell, most major towns still have a "little italy" which are remnants of the days where there wasnt much assimilation). It usually takes a generation of people. And even if they dont want to assimilate...so what? sooner or later what they have to do, will outweight what they want to do. we still will haver 250 million people vs 50?? million immigrants....who do you think is going to win out?

[Grasshopp3r]

I am in favor of strict enforcement and deportation for every last illegal. I would ship them to iraq to counter the radical islamic threat with catholic mexicans. A new crusade would also be a good middle east policy. The whole world benefits (except radical islam, obv).

[Misfire]

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The gas station attendant asked if you wanted your oil checked, and always squeegeed your windshield for free, too, while the tank was filling up.

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This would still be the case if the price of labor wasn't artificially high.

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But why don't we see as stiff an opposition to the welfare state as we do to immigration??

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Good question, but what does it matter?

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Because two wrongs don't make a right, and I believe the outcome for the economy as a whole would be much more positive after the elimination of the welfare state than after the elimination of the freedom to hire those who want to work at a wage they're willing to work for.

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plus immigrants depress their wages even if immigrants don't depress yours.

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Their wages and mine are irrelevant to a discussion about the economy as a whole. Looking at the effects of a policy on certain individuals while disregarding the effects on everyone else is the root of every economic fallacy ever known to man.

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There is also something to be said for cultural affinity. Most people prefer being around people who are like them in as many ways as possible. Many Americans also realize that many immigrants aren't here to assimilate and they probably resent that.

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I'm sure they resent the fact I won't cut my hair and put on a collared shirt too, but should I be deported for it?